Beauty and the Beast Blu-ray

Features, Shorts, Live-Action and Direct-To-Video
User avatar
Animated Views Admin
Animated Views Admin
Posts: 17806
Joined: October 22nd, 2004, 1:27 pm
Location: London, UK

Postby Ben » January 28th, 2009, 8:03 pm

I wouldn't say Human Again was re-inserted in or restored. It was never in the original theatrical cut.

Human Again couldn't be worked out and the sequence was cut long before its animation would have begun. The scene wasn't even audio recorded except as in demo form and it was replaced (not supplemented with but actually <I>replaced</I>) with Something There.

When the musical hit stage, the feeling was to incorporate as much Ashman material into is as possible, and the staging allowed the use of Human Again to work as well as keeping Something There in place. When the filmmakers saw how it had been "fixed" and were asked to come up with something new for a Special Edition release, they went for that sequence.

There are many sequences intended for animated films that get cut out along the way...it doesn't mean that putting them back in years after the fact is suitable. I don't actually have a problem with the inclusion of Human Again but I am dismayed that it means the original theatrical version is not available (yay for my LaserDisc).

As for Pocahontas, quite the reverse is true: If I Never Knew You was always intended for its place in the film. In this case the entire song had been recorded with the rest of the voice tracks and it <I>had been entirely animated</I> and included in the film, with many shots in final color. It was only at a last minute test screening that kids squirming in the audience saw it being taken out from the movie.

Since this wasn't an artistic choice, and not the wishes of the directors or composers, it was perfectly right to offer the originally as intended version of the film on DVD, which also reinstated a later reprise. However, the original version as released was also made available, and the changes between the two did not have any impact on anything like backgrounds, artistic or story changes.

The If I Never Knew You sequence was filmed and ready to go. It was in the original print. In that case it was a simple few cuts that eliminated the material. With Human Again in Beauty And The Beast they went back and recreated a musical sequence that had been intentionally cut and replaced in the picture. They even had to pull back Gary Trousdale to the studio to have his credited creative input!

With The Lion King, contractual credits again prevented anything other than a song by Elton John and Tim Rice from being inserted. In this case, there was no reason to change the way a scene played out (in words instead of song in the original) but by then Human Again had provided a way to bring in new audiences and the Studio wanted a new sequence.

Since they could only use material written by John and Rice, they were limited to the three songs they wrote for the musical. I would have loved Shadowlands myself, and think that would have brought great power to the middle of the film, but it wasn't a John/Rice track. Thus I guess Morning Report was judged the easiest to insert with the least story or background changes, and so that's why they went with that song for that moment.


Hope that clears some things up...I believe I've mentioned all that before 'round these here parts! :)

Animated Views Admin
Animated Views Admin
Posts: 6290
Joined: October 16th, 2004, 7:51 pm
Contact:

Postby James » January 28th, 2009, 8:11 pm

I think Mac is talking about the fact that in addition to going in and adding a scene, they then went back and changed parts of the theatrical cut to match what they added in the new scenes.

User avatar
Animated Views Admin
Animated Views Admin
Posts: 17806
Joined: October 22nd, 2004, 1:27 pm
Location: London, UK

Postby Ben » January 28th, 2009, 8:16 pm

Yah, my points basically agreeing with him that they shouldn't really have put the song into the film (which <I>wasn't</I> intended to be there) if it led to such a massive alteration to the rest of the film, and then not actually offered both versions correctly, as the Lion King and Pocahontas discs <I>did</I>.

Essentially, Human Again was cut out early on and was only inserted after the fact. As I said, I actually enjoy the sequence but feel it's a shame it had such an impact on the rest of the film and means we don't get the <I>original</I> original anymore.

AV Forum Member
AV Forum Member
Posts: 1347
Joined: January 23rd, 2006, 5:23 pm
Location: The Middle of Nowhere

Postby eddievalient » January 29th, 2009, 12:48 am

Ben, I'm not sure which dvd you have, but my disc includes three versions of the film: the "special edition" with Human Again (which is the only one I watch now), the original theatrical release and the "work in progress" version. Maybe the UK didn't get the original version on theirs?
The Official Lugofilm Ltd Youtube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/bartsimpson83

AV Forum Member
AV Forum Member
Posts: 1471
Joined: October 7th, 2007, 11:18 am
Location: Unknown

Postby Once Upon A Dream » January 29th, 2009, 7:57 am

Too bad that If I Never Knew You was cut from Pocahontas.
About Humans Again-Something's There is better.
Morning Report from the Lion King was awful.
Image

User avatar
Animated Views Admin
Animated Views Admin
Posts: 17806
Joined: October 22nd, 2004, 1:27 pm
Location: London, UK

Postby Ben » January 29th, 2009, 7:58 am

Haha!

What you actually have is the Special Edition.

Then you have the Special Edition with Human Again taken out, which is what this disc terms the "Original Theatrical Cut". Compared to the <I>original</I> original edition of B&TB you will notice how everything is cleaned up in the Castle after Human Again, whether you watch it with the song included or not.

Then you have the Special Edition with the pencil tests and storyboards from the original WIP edition "superimposed" (for want of a better word) in the frame using a discreet multi angle function. This basically does not represent the original WIP as released on LaserDisc because in that form the print was not completed. In the case on the DVD, we get a "complete" print and the insertions of storyboard and other development art are from newly converted material.

Essentially, to save on disc space (can you actually imagine having three separate versions of an 88 minute film on one disc?), the disc (in the US, UK and everywhere) used the new Special Edition cut as a basis. Then they either make the player skip over the Human Again scene to deliver a "theatrical cut", and inserted artwork over certain shots to deliver a "WIP" version.

None of these additional versions are true to the originals, as those with those LaserDiscs can confirm. The original theatrical cut has different opening and closing titles, and the WIP version even has a completely different opening title font and much more pencil tests included before final color was introduced.

Also, those previous versions presented B&TB in its original 1.66:1 ratio, which has for some reason been cropped further close to 1.85:1 for the DVD (again, in all territories, though I naturally have the R1 disc). All of these points caused a lot of debate at the time, though what Mac was originally getting to was that he (and you) don't actually have the original cut anymore.

What we have been left with is the Special Edition, but without Human Again inserted back in, even though the rest of the film then runs with the "cleaned up" Castle backgrounds from that sequence. Since, as Mac says, that sequence "never really happened", why is that background change there? Basically to save on the disc space from having to include at least two and a half versions of the film.

The B&TB DVD is a scam for anything other than those who want the Special Edition with the top and bottom cropped off and colors artificially boosted. :(

Animated Views Admin
Animated Views Admin
Posts: 6290
Joined: October 16th, 2004, 7:51 pm
Contact:

Postby James » January 29th, 2009, 9:05 am

Here's hoping they fix the BD of my favorite animated film!

AV Forum Member
AV Forum Member
Posts: 442
Joined: November 22nd, 2006, 6:08 pm
Location: Boston, MA

Postby Rodney » January 29th, 2009, 11:08 am

I agree. This is one I'll definitely be upgrading.

AV Forum Member
AV Forum Member
Posts: 1934
Joined: October 22nd, 2004, 1:30 pm

Postby Christian » January 29th, 2009, 6:24 pm

"In the restored version, for example, when Pinnochio gets locked in Geppetto's "birdcage" the nighttime scene is bright and garish where it should intentionally be darker and muted."

I was there too and that's just about the only scene I missed when I ran quickly to the restroom.

What we saw at the theater that evening may not be exactly like what the Blu-Ray will look like. When the screening started that night Eric Goldberg nudged me and whispered, "This isn't in focus." Not that focus issues are the same as coloration issues but we may need to wait until we see the Blu-Ray to judge the Blu-Ray. Eric watched the Blu-Ray as he recorded the commentary track for it and I seemed to remember him saying the restoration done was excellent. He has talked to me about color issues before on these restorations (e.g., he loved the Lady and the Tramp restoration but had some quibbles with coloring on the Cinderella restoration) and didn't air any complaints about the Pinocchio restoration. I'm not saying that if somebody wanted to get into a discussion with him about it that he wouldn't be able to give more informed commentary than what I've conveyed here or that he gave a complete rundown of his thoughts on the Pinocchio restoration. Just relating what I picked up on.
Last edited by Christian on January 29th, 2009, 8:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.

AV Forum Member
AV Forum Member
Posts: 4609
Joined: September 1st, 2006, 3:53 pm
Location: I'll be watching you!

Postby Daniel » January 29th, 2009, 7:23 pm

I thought as much. Thanks for giving the info you shared, it certainly makes me a little more relieved.

Eric Goldberg, wow! You're so lucky. ;)

User avatar
Animated Views Admin
Animated Views Admin
Posts: 17806
Joined: October 22nd, 2004, 1:27 pm
Location: London, UK

Postby Ben » January 30th, 2009, 10:32 am

Yep...Christian did all right out of his association with us. Ouch! ;)

AV Forum Member
AV Forum Member
Posts: 2
Joined: January 22nd, 2009, 6:12 am
Location: UAE

Postby miss_black_n_white » February 4th, 2009, 2:39 am

Just taking this thread on a totally different route check out this site i came across on Digital Restoration in the Middle East.

http://www.digitalrestorationme.com/

I come from this region and I feel this is a great initiative that can tell of our past. They also have samples that show what a long way we have come.

Let me know what you guys think...I will be adding a new post on Restoration in the Middle East soon... :D

User avatar
Animated Views Admin
Animated Views Admin
Posts: 17806
Joined: October 22nd, 2004, 1:27 pm
Location: London, UK

Postby Ben » February 4th, 2009, 5:02 pm

Very interesting, although this company looks to be more of a clean-up vendor that makes already provided material look better rather than a chemical based restoration company that first of all provides a removal of scuff from the film elements and then can recompose images before attempting to provide multi-layered restorations.

I'm sure this company could do that if provided with enough funds, but many of the big studios either have these facilities in house or co-fund or have deal agreements with preferred providers. Interesting that this kind of work is being done in the Middle East, though; yet another example of how film production and restoration is starting to carry weight across all corners of the world.

Welcome to our boards! :)

AV Forum Member
AV Forum Member
Posts: 658
Joined: July 9th, 2008, 3:53 am
Location: Australia

Postby Bill1978 » February 28th, 2009, 7:56 am

With the recent Academy Awards airing, a wonderance that was sitting in the back of my brain has come out to the front. And I thought some good person here might be able to help.

When Beauty And The Beast was nominated for Best Picture, how were it's chances of winning rated? I know Silence Of The Lambs was the front runner for the year but where was Beauty? At the time was it considered a potential threat to Silence, a possibility of an upset or was it a really long shot and the nomination was good enough.

Animated Views Admin
Animated Views Admin
Posts: 6290
Joined: October 16th, 2004, 7:51 pm
Contact:

Postby James » February 28th, 2009, 1:18 pm

Unlike this year, that was a great year for movies so I doubt it had much of a chance. But being nominated when there were so many good movies was a huge coup.

Which is why it seems inconceivable that in such a down year for movies WALL-E couldn't get a nomination. Which probably proves it is unlikely to ever happen now that we have the animation ghetto.