The Avengers

[Dacey]

I hope so. Words can't describe just how badly I want for this movie to be good.

[EricJ]

There's still the issue of Joss Whedon saying we won't be getting Ant-Man & the Wasp--

That, however, I suspect, remains to be seen...
Marvel's just not going to get that solo movie going whatever they do--And have the feeling that it's going to end up stalled to the point that Hank & Janet end up absorbed into supporting bit parts so that Marvel can call it thirty on that project, and any "solo" projects for the characters will end up as animated shorts on one of the other videos.

(Although that's pure wishful thinking, but I want my live-action Janet! It's just not the Avengers without Those Wacky Dysfunctional, Comic-Deconstructing Pyms!)

[Randall]

I'd like the Pyms in there, too; but it looks like they're intent on having Hawkeye and Black Widow, making it crowded along with the headliners they're committed to. The Pyms just wouldn't get decent screentime.

[Dan]

Over the weekend, Eva Longoria was recently spotted leaving the Marvel offices with a stack of Avengers comics tucked under her arm. It is speculated that she could be Wasp.

http://www.iwatchstuff.com/2008/09/eva_ ... is_was.php

[Macaluso]

plus ant man sucks

[LotsoA113]

WHAAAAAT?!?!?!?!

[Ben]

Man, that's a Comic-Con panel and a half!

The film's going to be interesting to see how they pull it off at all, not to mention how they set it all up for non-believers and give everyone enough screentime. To that end, I think if they added in the "wacky dysfunctional" characters, it would set the wrong tone for what's inevitably going to be a "fun but serious" take on the material and put the fringe/average audience members off.

After all, we've seen that genre geeks can't support a big movie like this alone. They need to take their friends. And those friends need to be able to understand and get involved in the movie, so that they tell their other friends. Make it too involved/insider and/or frivilous, and that audience won't know how to take it, and won't like it. And then we won't get the sequels that could introduce the fan favorites!

[GeorgeC]

I believe we're well into the era of "too many comic book movies" for comics' and movies' own good.

For every Iron Man, there is a Spirit, Superman Returns, and Hulk. For every good beginning (Iron Man again), there's a sequel that fizzles and doesn't match up to the first happy accident --- Iron Man 2.

Frankly, I don't know how good this Avengers film will be. Be like the comics much? Kinda doubt it. Superficially? Eh, that's granted. In spirit? Not so much. It's plug 'N play Hollywood. It's hodge-podge classic Avengers and Ultimates because nobody-in-charge-at-the-moment has confidence in the original model! (Frontload it with Downey, Jr. and we can pretty much forget about the rest of the forgettable cast.) Let's see if it'll appeal beyond the fanboys at Comic-Con (85% of whom don't appear to be comics fans and have never read a thing in their life besides Internet movie sites --- it's a very superficial fandom of people who like to cosplay and really don't understand anything about the characters they're dressing up as for the most part -- sort of like the people who attend Church services but never open their Bible!) and the people who pay too much attention to what things cost or look like and NONE whatsoever to what's actually written in the script!

I already HATE what they're doing with Captain America de-emphasizing the "America" part of the equation and turning him into another standard action guy. Didn't care for the casting to begin with --- Chris "Johnny Bonehead" Evans? Yuck! Makes Ryan Reynolds' casting as GL seem pure genius! ---, but now we're supposed to think he's Captain "International"? HELLO, he's wearing the Grand Old Flag for goodness' sake! (=> minus the head wings. Shoulda been a way to paint on the wings or have a three-dimensional representation so that they don't look bad. I have a fondness for 70 years of tradition and just haven't liked the changes I've seen in the costume, either. It's like putting Superman in a black outfit with a silver cape and having him fight a spider in the Arctic for no reason... or putting Batman in an outfit so dark and lighting a movie so poorly that you can't see what's happening... Of course, that didn't happen now, did it?)

Joe Johnston's comments on Cap do not inspire confidence from me... and many other people. (Money saved! Wait for broadcast on FX to see how bad the final product turned out. Boy, was I glad I didn't spend money on the FF movies!)

Big, big Captain AMERICA fan here. Love the character. Easily one of my top 5, if not top 3 favorite characters. Hate 85-90% of the comics he's ever been in because the writers seem to miss the point! (They get too political to bash or praise politicians, turn him into a soldier again, forget the superhero part, or do something boneheaded like reveal his secret identity, take his costume away, and bring back his dead sidekick after 40 years. Sidekick replaces mentor as the costumed character until the movie!) BUT... when he's done right boy is it beautiful! Honestly one of the best characters in motion and awesome when he's written to inspire. It's just a shame that it seems like there were only about 3-4 people in existence who actually knew how to write him. Mark Gruenwald, Stan Lee, and Roger Stern "got it." Everybody else? Not so much.

FYI, it's not so much that I love patriotic characters for the jingoistic aspect. (Okay, I DO love some flag costumes. Captain America, Guardian/Vindicator, and Captain Britain Mark I/II have great flag outfits.) There's just something special about Cap. He's an inspirational character. One who's supposed to be what people aspire to be in a thinking sense. The whole freedom, best of the best leading the way, giving a strong hand to the weak and pulling them up from the mud. The classic hero who inspires people to want freedom and make it happen for themselves. It's not about him repping the government (BOO!) but being a living embodiment of what's best in a democratic society (YAY!). He's not a soldier now in spite of his origins... He's evolved far past that.

He's the classic Nietzche/perverted German superman archetype turned on its head and made into a figure of light instead of a demonic overlord.

That's the basic superhero archetype... Forget that and you might as well have a thug dress up in red, white, or blue or hire mercenaries.

******************

Joss Whedon's record, Serenity-notwithstanding because it possibly had the most insular sci-fi fandom this side of the SyFy BSG remake, we just don't know what will happen with him at the helm... It's not a very long list for directing major films.

*************

I will say definitively that the new Avengers cartoon isn't looking good. Standard Marvel fare -- squeeze it out as fast as you can for as little money and slap on a hilariously horrible theme song.

It looks that bad!

It even sounds like they cast a 14-year-old girl as Wasp!

The rest of the voice-casting... you just gotta hear the trailer on Newsarama.com ... It's sad, honestly.

(FYI, the only Marvel animated series with a half-cool theme song is the first Spider-Man animated series. Myself, I prefer more orchestral themes like Batman: TAS or Superman: TAS. I don't much care for theme songs since it seems like local teen garage bands are being hired to compose them for Marvel shows...)

Good for DisneyXD. This will probably work in Marvel's favor when they yet again revamp ANOTHER animated series in a few years (shades of Spectacular to Ultimate Spider-Man) when this show sinks into obscurity like the last Avengers series on FoxKids did.

Why oh why do they muck with what worked in the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s? Oh right... Because some animation turk wanting to make his big impact thinks he's going to reinvent the wheel and make something work better than the best writers and artists did during that time frame!

Reinventing the wheel for its own sake generally doesn't end too well when then wheel becomes lopsided or square...

The last time I remember the Avengers being any good for a consistent amount of time was back in the 1980s... So, so long ago. It still felt like the comic started in the 1960s but didn't talk down to kids. It also wasn't written by some poseur trying to be hip and kewl, too.

What Bendis is writing in current Avengers comics is a bunch of popular kids talking smack to each other. It's the same baloney most of us grew out of once we graduated college. Yes, it's popular for the time being and passes for what sells well in the diminished returns comic book market, but so did the Image Comics in the early 1990s... and how many people remember anything memorable coming out of Image during that time? Popularity for the moment does not translate into long-term classic... And many of those comics now sell for cover price.

But then again, the FF hasn't been any good since the 1980s, either! Most of us that bothered to watch know how well THOSE movies turned out. Nobody's talking about the last FF animated series much, either.

[Ben]

Well, it's basically what happens, isn't it George. Something big hits and we get the same thing over and over until it's not successful anymore. Then after a rest something else similar hits and whatever it was is back in vogue.

The thing with the superhero movies is that there's such a splintered market - you could say its a genre of its own - that it can withstand a few flops within certain franchises, as we have seen. Sometimes that means they try again with a reboot to wash away the sins of the misfire!

But, if several big superhero movies all failed or didn't live up to expectations, we'd see a great absence of these films from our screens for a while. BUT...it won't happen soon as every now and then a Dark Knight or Iron Man comes along and makes such a splash that everyone then hope their next hero movie could be the one to get close to those kinds of well received movies.

Of course, it rarely happens, but amongst the heap of unfortunately sure-to-be-dross coming up, one or three will be genuine wowsers. And they're the ones that make the other ones worth wading through.

[GeorgeC]

Ben,

In all honesty the best, truest to the character live-action hero films for me are the first two Reeve Superman films. It expanded upon and redefined Superman and aspects of his background (especially Krypton visually) in a much-needed way. These films only helped the source material (the comics) which badly needed some redefinition at the time! The score for that film remains amongst my favorite pieces by John Williams and the London Symphony Orchestra.

It was one of those once-in-a-lifetime achievements in filmmaking where everything fell into place and you felt the filmmakers (Richard Donner and Tom Mankcwiez{sp}) "got it."

Those are good films through and through. Especially the Director's Cuts which include the Donner cut of Superman II, the only Director's Cut (of any film I've seen) which I felt made a significant difference in the feel of the fim.

Other than the fluke of Iron Man I, I just don't feel the other live-action films have managed to do this. Animated Batman (1992-1995, Mask of the Phantasm 1993 in particular amongst the animated films), yes, but the other adaptations (live-action) not so much...!

I just don't see that love or consideration happening for these Marvel films, or the current crop of DC films so far. What got unveiled at SDCC is more of the same we've already gotten with the FF films, the grossly overrated (IMHO) Nolan Batman films, and Superman Returns.

These intangibles are hard to explain when over 90% of the potential audience has never read the original comics these films were based on!

We're not talking about the absence of web-shooters, btw... We're talking about the basics like ethos and character action. Part of what I've hated about the Batman films has been the on-screen portrayal of Batman (particularly in the Burton/Schumacher messes) of Batman KILLING villains. That's a big no-no and displays a lack of understanding of that character. Explaining this to people who dream about revenge fantasies is close to an exercist in futility...!

[Dacey]

George, the only times I can remember Batman ever killing a villain in the live action films was the Joker in Burton's first "Batman" and Two Face in "Dark Knight." And the only reason that he killed Two Face was because of the extreme intensity of the situation. As for the Schumacher films, I can't remember Batman killing anyone in those.

[eddievalient]

Also, I liked the Avengers trailer. I think it's gonna be a good show. George, why do you continue to call yourself a fan if you have nothing but disdain and vitriol for everything coming out? Obviously people like these movies (and shows) or we wouldn't be seeing so many of them. You really need to learn to accept that and move on.

[GeorgeC]

Eddie,

These characters are very old and icons for many people.

Also, Sturgeon's Law -- 90% of anything produced in any field is crap. Bucking those percentages takes quite a bit of doing and care.

I have very high standards and do care about the characters. Many of the people unfortunately involved in producing the comics and movies see it as just a job or another step in the ladder of their careers.

If the characters continue to be mismanaged and handled the way they have been for many years now, they will eventually pass into the dustbin and be forgotten. I've seen this mentality of milking characters quickly for all their worth and the disappearance and eventual nonexistence of many characters in the past. The Phantom, The Green Hornet, and The Lone Ranger are largely forgotten in North America and much of the world because they weren't handled well by their owners. Same is true for a lot of once-famous animated characters, too.

It happened with a lot of the Image Comics characters shortly after they first got published. A number of those characters received quick, lucrative development deals and were on TV in shows within 2-3 years of their first issues. Nowadays, hardly anyone recalls those characters because they were so forgettable and disappeared quickly for lack of substantial quality stories and characterization. This is seriously rotten stewardship! Not that most of the characters were great to begin with, but even a turd can be polished as witnessed by some excellent stories done with characters like Supreme (an obvious Superman clone).

Right now, Marvel has the backing of a corporate parent that can enable it to do a good job with these characters. Why they continue to do mostly mediocre and uninspired takes on these characters is beyond me besides the fact that Marvel's motto for a long time has been to "do it cheaper."

(The same attitude's passed on to DC as people frequently switch back and forth between companies. It's historically the worst era in publishing for comics with the lowest circulation numbers on record. What passes for high sales nowadays would have guaranteed cancellation as little as 40-odd years ago. It's a sad situation and the quality of the overall product as well as the restricted distribution and pricepoint of monthlies is to blame...)

I accept the fact that DC doesn't always get it right, either, but their track record as far as animation work goes is far superior. There are reasons why the DC shows get rabid attention at the cons and why they bother to bring the directors and voiceover artists to the Cons. It's not all about PR. The people that work on these series are passionate about their jobs, they love the characters and do right by them, and they get the best talent they can hire. It certainly doesn't hurt that the veteran artists on these shows are generally fans of some of the best creative eras of the characters. Their video releases routinely get higher marks and the shows TV have set higher standards for how action-adventure series should be done.

Have you seen as much about any of the Marvel shows at SDCC and the like? I sure haven't!

Never, ever get over quality issues on video releases and TV shows.

If people continue to accept trash and pay for it, the media companies will keep producing it. It will diminish both the characters and parent companies in the long run which can do irreparable damage. (Aquaman's treated as a "joke character" largely because of uninspired writing and his mediocre presence on the Superfriends series. This happened over a long period of time and continues to hurt that character.) Can either Disney or Marvel really afford to produce a lot of shlock even it makes them a lot of money? Look at how Disney's reputation as a producer of quality animation suffered with all the cheap, quick sequels produced for its theatrical releases!

These things come and go in cycles as Ben said... Totally agree with that. I think he would also agree with me that the number of these shows and movies that are true gems -- that can be judged as truly excellent movies and TV series in their own right outside of the comic book origins -- is pathetically small indeed.

[Ben]

That's what I said George.

[GeorgeC]

Don't get me wrong...

I've said all along that I LOVE heroes.

I like them even better than villains although it's true that a great villain sets a successful hero apart from a forgotten hero.

This all said, I'd rather see just a few GOOD superhero films than a bunch of really bad ones. I'm in favor of quality versus quantity. We're getting so much of the latter I fear...

Same with the comics which is partly why I stopped collecting monthlies.

I've definitely got my favorite eras where heroes are concerned. These past two decades are NOT my favorite era.

Put a gun to my head, and I'll tell you my favorite eras =>
DC Comics => late 1930s, 1940s, 1950s, and early 1960s and probably the second half of the 1980s
Favorite DC characters (no particular order of preference): Superman (prefer the Earth-2 version to what we have now), Batman (Earth-1 and -2 versions), The Flash (Golden Age, Silver Age, Wally West), Green Lantern (the first two), the original Doom Patrol (way better than the X-Men in the 1960s), the 1960s JLA, the original Captain Marvel, Supergirl, Batgirl (Barbara Gordon), Robin (Dick Grayson in his classic role), and the classic roster of the JSA that got wiped out in Zero Hour; I have many other favorites but these are the ones that stick with me

Stick me on a desert island, and the only hardcovers I'd have to have are the complete Archive runs of The Spirit (perhaps the closest to a perfect Golden Age comic that I've read), the original Captain Marvel, Batman/Detective, and the All-Star/JSA Archives. The original JSA is one of the most fun team comics I've ever read!

Marvel Comics => Not as much here that I like. There's a lot of flash and fistfights just for the heck of it. Compelling storylines and good plots are harder to find although they're present... in smaller doses than DC IMHO

Favorite Marvel Eras =>
Not much from the Golden Age (1940s and 1950s) besides Captain America and the original Human Torch... prefer the android Torch to the nitwit in the FF; Cap is one of my favorite superheroes, period, although I prefer his 1960s Tales of Suspense run to any of his headline series
Favorite Marvel Characters => Captain America, the original Human Torch, Spider-Man, the new X-Men (classic Byrne/Clarement team), the late 1970s/early 1980s Avengers, the Beast (blue ape version), Doctor Doom, the original Green Goblin, Mysterio, the Red Skull, the classic Scorpion, Doctor Octopus and most of the other Ditko-era Spider-Man villains, and many others... very few Marvel characters that I hate although there a few that are so dull the only real reason I care for them is visual impact... (Case in point, Silver Surfer)
1960s => Marvel's Era.
Way, way better with the characterization and emotional impact than DC Comics. Plots are thin, fights are constant between the superheroes. Sometimes it seems like they fight more amongst themselves than against the villains! Marvel OWNED this decade IMHO. With notable exceptions like the original X-Men run prior to Thomas/Adams, Marvel hardly produced a consistently bad book in those years! Stan Lee justified his near-deification as Marvel's Patron Saint and Steve Ditko and Jack Kirby (along with Stan Lee) produced their best work and the best source material for the Marvel movies. (Whether their work is being adapted well at all... time will tell.)
1980s => Marvel's Second Silver Age (the sequel to the 1960s).
The last time the line was consistent and had a decent Editor-in-Chief.
Many, many of the Marvel Comics experienced some of their critically best-received runs during this time frame. Arguably the best runs of X-Men, FF, and Avengers occurred during this decade as well as the last consistently good runs on Spider-Man and Captain America in addition to the Hulk.