The Muppets

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Post by eddievalient » July 25th, 2010, 11:18 pm

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if Disney timed the last two seasons of The Muppet Show to release alongside the movie (season four with the theatrical release and season five with the dvd release). From a marketing standpoint, it would seem to be the perfect time. Are you listening, Disney?
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Re: The NEW Muppet Movie

Post by EricJ » July 25th, 2010, 11:39 pm

ShyViolet wrote:With respect, I really don't see how the Muppets can't be popular again if they're given the proper forum. There is something so human and timeless about them; Eisner bought them because he saw that, because he respected Jim, and because as said Disney was the logical place for them to go.
(Although there were also rumors that Eisner had the same confusion over who owned Sesame Street...
And while it's tragic to remember, let's not forget that it was Jim originally doing the selling, after Labyrinth, aka Henson's Folly, had crippled the company and he'd burned most of his bridges behind him.)

One reason they can't be popular again is that none of the new writers seem to have a grasp on somebody else's ideas:
Jim Henson understood the basic feel-good hippiness of the characters' world, Jerry Juhl understood the warped logic of a world where everything talked, and departed performers like Frank Oz and Richard Hunt realized we were watching a performance, something you don't get with cartoon characters.
The new generation only remembers the Muppets as "wisecracking", and the writing devolves into more soulless sitcom-barbs and characters like Pepe and Rizzo taking center stage...The world of a group of foam and ping-pong creatures seems less inviting a place to be, and more about a world stuck in 80's sitcoms.
(And that was just "Manhattan", heaven knows where "Space" would rank on that scale.)

It raises the eternal Beach Boys question: Just how long can you keep replacing band members, and still expect Good Vibrations, before it becomes a fairground band? :P

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Re: The NEW Muppet Movie

Post by Dacey » July 26th, 2010, 12:51 am

You're right. The Muppets can't be popular anymore.

That's why their YouTube vid from a while ago got...how many hits was it again? I believe it was something like 13,000,000 or more.

;)
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Re: The NEW Muppet Movie

Post by EricJ » July 26th, 2010, 2:45 am

Dacey wrote:You're right. The Muppets can't be popular anymore.
That's why their YouTube vid from a while ago got...
...A lame attempt to bring them up to "contemporary", a pitch toward pop-culture slackers who would remember 80's characters, and the usual resulting Warner-like confusion as to whether or not that meant the characters were supposed to be pop-kitsch.
Which, unfortunately, is what they seem to get these days, with more attempts to artificially "revive" them than to follow an actual market-proven lead.

(But at least we don't seem to be getting the Reality-Show Parody anymore.)

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Post by Ben » July 30th, 2010, 3:28 pm

The Muppets can be HUGE again if they get this right.

Nobody knew them before they hit in the 70s, and not many people remember them now. The Bohemiam Rhapsody video wasn't brilliant in all places but it was a great way to bring them up to date. It also won a slew of internet awards.

That Disney is asking Pixar to look at this shows how serious they are about this attempt. But...it does feel all "Manhattan" again, which did the same thing: Kermit pulling the gang back together after "Saying Goodbye", one of the things that I fall into a heap weeping my eyes out whenever I hear it.

I just hope and pray this is a good enough testament to Henson and his characters even if it is the last thing they go out on. And here's seconding the release of Seasons 4 and 5 of The Muppet Show on DVD around the film release, and I'd welcome Muppets Tonight and the recent specials too, not to mention the original specials that haven't seen disc debuts yet, including The Muppets Go To The Movies and the documentary Of Muppets And Men, among others.

Heck, let's say we'd like all four Disney controlled movies on Blu-ray (and a way to license Manhattan from Sony, which they have done with other titles before to maximise the tie-ins). Start the buzz...if you're a true, original, genuine Muppet fan, the time they need us is now. Get out there and start promoting them, not just making the same old complaints about how they have wound up at Disney's. That's still the place for them right now: at least the Mouse has been trying - think how neglected they'd be at Warners or...shudder...Universal!

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Re:

Post by EricJ » July 30th, 2010, 3:50 pm

Ben wrote:That Disney is asking Pixar to look at this shows how serious they are about this attempt. But...it does feel all "Manhattan" again, which did the same thing: Kermit pulling the gang back together after "Saying Goodbye", one of the things that I fall into a heap weeping my eyes out whenever I hear it.
Was just watching "Manhattan" again last week, and while it's not one of the classics, it does strike you that Jim really did think he was Wrapping The Show Up For Good with a big finale. (To make more room for all their post-Labyrinth work.)
Thus the strategically placed Muppet Babies spinoff pilot, and the big waited-for final-episode "marriage" with Piggy...And after it looked like the Creature Shop wasn't going to become the company's main household name after Labyrinth, and the Muppets probably shouldn't be retired for good, Kermit went back to saying "Oh, that marriage/ending thing?...That was just a movie, y'know."

"Saying Goodbye" really does bring on a sniffle, because it feels like we were being cushioned for the blow, Shrek Forever After style, and made ready to permanently say goodbye to the characters.
But seeing all the Country Bears comparisons in the reader reactions to the new movie feels more like someone trying to insert artificial ingredients, and going for the Very Muppet Christmas "What else would they be doing?" gags--Which, again, leaves the door open a crack for the usual bet-hedging where they don't know whether they're selling them to new kids or 80's-camp baby boomers.
I just hope and pray this is a good enough testament to Henson and his characters even if it is the last thing they go out on.
Start the buzz...if you're a true, original, genuine Muppet fan, the time they need us is now. Get out there and start promoting them, not just making the same old complaints about how they have wound up at Disney's.
I'll support the movie, but only if it's the movie that Pixar Fixed-- :)
It may probably be the last thing they do, and the best thing we hope for is that it leaves a positive memory with the new generation to keep selling the "real" disks...But the one ingredient it needed was a sense of feel-good (ie. less Pepe), to remind why we old grownups like the characters thirty years ago, and Pixar is mushy feel-good on demand.
PIxar manages to be one of the few studios left that knows that Cynicism Doesn't Sell, and that no matter how unbelievable the setup, a little positive earnestness can put it over with the audience.
Last edited by EricJ on July 30th, 2010, 4:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Ben » July 30th, 2010, 4:13 pm

Yep, agreed.

Manhattan really did tie it all up in terms of the "original Muppets", and the Disney park attraction aside, it's the closing chapter of Henson's involvment and the creating crew. The Muppet Christmas Carol has been the best thing post-Jim, but they need to get back to those Juhl sensibilities to do anything meaningful again.

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Post by Randall » July 30th, 2010, 6:42 pm

Of course, if the new Muppet film is a success, that's the best way to guarantee seeing more Muppet stuff, both old (on DVD or Blu-ray) and new (on TV and in theatres). Personally, I'm rooting for that success.

Any property can be great with the right handling, and that more than pertains to The Muppets.

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Re: Re:

Post by ShyViolet » July 31st, 2010, 2:49 pm

EricJ wrote: It may probably be the last thing they do, and the best thing we hope for is that it leaves a positive memory with the new generation to keep selling the "real" disks...But the one ingredient it needed was a sense of feel-good (ie. less Pepe),
Yeah but I love Pepe! :)

And they better not leave Rizzo out. ;)
You can’t just have your characters announce how they feel! That makes me feel angry!

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Post by eddievalient » July 31st, 2010, 8:48 pm

Or Bobo! Whatever happened to him?
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Post by Ben » August 1st, 2010, 7:16 am

Bobo was on the fringes of being a strain, but Pepe is pure Muppets. And don't get me wrong: as I said above, this is the time we all really need to support the Muppets and root for this to be a positive experience. I'm really, really, really hoping that it's going to be a well thought out return to form and a real surprise from the new crew.

If they had any sense, they'd get Frank Oz back to direct it, even if he didn't perform as Piggy or Fozzie.

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Post by Randall » August 1st, 2010, 9:53 am

I just had to share my big find yesterday. I was at a Half Price Books in Coprus Christi, and found a good copy of the Of Muppets and Men: The Making of The Muppet Show hardcover book. This book can sell for hundreds of dollars on the collectibles market, and I scooped it up for $25! The book isn't quite as cool as it could be, with lots of white space left on the pages, but there are still lots of cool behind-the-scenes photos and fun anecdotes.

I also found some nice animation DVD sets still in shrinkwrap for 5-7 dollars each, and the Making of Wallace and Gromit: Curse of the Wererabbit hardcover for $5 (and several other big sci-fi and comics-related books for 5-7 dollars), so it was a very good shopping trip. I had both arms full of stuff and spent only a hundred bucks.

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Post by Dacey » August 1st, 2010, 12:00 pm

Sounds like you hit the jackpot!
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Post by Ben » August 1st, 2010, 2:43 pm

Which one is that, Rand? Paperback (softcover) about 7 or 8 inches across in each direction? With a fold-out central page?

That's as best as I can describe an ultra-cool book my Dad brought back from the Muppets one time, which I've obviously kept very safe. If I remember rightly (and I'd have to dig it out and check) I think it's been signed by Jim. It does have a lot of white space, but that lends it a classy feel, covering Sam & Friends and the other shows (including Emmet Otter with quite a few backstage images) that Henson had created. It doesn't cover The Great Muppet Caper, coming part-way between the first film and that one in development).

Does that sound like the terrific find you just, um, found?


UPDATE: just read your post again after doing a search for this book and now know this isn't the one I have. Wow...color me a very deep shade of green (which isn't easy, bein' green). ;)

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Post by Randall » August 1st, 2010, 10:13 pm

YES!!! That's exactly what I was going for when I wrote my post. ;)

Yep, this book is a monster hardcover, roughly...oh... 14 inches square.

Yessir, I was pretty happy with this find. And to think I nearly didn't get it! I iniitally put in back on the shelf when my little boy ran away (since my arms were already so full), but fortunately I was able to go back and pick it up, knowing I'd regret it if I didn't.

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