Term For Disney's Canon/List of Disney Films/A Song For Them

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Term For Disney's Canon/List of Disney Films/A Song For Them

Post by Neal » September 14th, 2008, 11:58 am

Originally these were three topics with three separate questions, but now they've been rolled into one on the account that they're kind of similar. If you're the type of reader who reads the posts oldest to new, then that's why I've copied and pasted all three questions to this first post for you to see. Please help me in any way you can! Thanks!

This may seem like a long post, but keep in mind it was originally three smaller posts. So please stick with me and offer any help you can!
______________________________________________________

Question One: Official term for Disney's Canon?

I was wondering what the official term for Disney's 51 animated films is?

I've heard it called:

The Disney Canon
The Disney theatrical animated features Canon
The Walt Disney Animation Studios Canon
The Disney Animation Canon

... what term is the 'official' term for Disney's in-house, 51 animated films list/collection (starting with Snow White and currently ending with King of the Elves)?

Can anyone tell me?

Thanks!

______________________________________________________

Question Two: Order In Which To Watch All The Animated Disney Films

I took the 51 released/announced animated Disney films and combined them with the 42 sequels/prequels/midquels/interquels that Disney has produced/announced for them.

In this way, you have a list that uses the animated features canon as a base order to watch the films in, but has all the supplemental films added in.

My rules were that you take the 51 canon films, and then shift around any canon sequels (like shifting The Rescuers Down Under down so that it was right behind The Rescuers , etc.) but all other films in the canon remained in the same place. Then I took all 42 of the sequels/prequels/midquels/interquels/spin-offs, etc. and moved them into place ahead or after their appropriate movie in the canon so that you could match up any continuities. There may be confusion as films like Tarzan II are prequels to the original but have the '2' suffix. However, I believe I did this right.

The sequels/prequels, etc. had to be at least 60 minutes ("feature-length") to be included. So such shorts as Winne the Pooh and a Day for Eeyore are not counted as sequels as they aren't "feature-length".

See, I want to watch ALL the Disney animated films - original canon and sequels - before Princess and the Frog comes out. Sort of a refresher course for it. And I want to watch them in order. But rather than watch the 51 canon films in order, and then go back and watch the sequels in order, I thought it made more sense to inject the sequels into their proper place in the canon.

Please read my list and make sure I placed all the films in the proper place. Also, check to see if I missed out on any sequels, prequels, midquels, interquels, spin-offs or spiritual succesor films. The canon is easily defined, but the sequels don't have an official "list" so I might have missed some. Please see if I did. I want a complete list!

All that said, here's my list:

>>>>

Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs
Pinocchio
Fantasia
Fantasia 2000
Dumbo
Bambi
Bambi II
Saludos Amigos
The Three Caballeros
Make Mine Music
Fun and Fancy Free
Mickey, Donald, Goofy: The Three Musketeers
Melody Time
The Adventures of Ichabod and Mr. Toad
Cinderella
Cinderella II: Dreams Come True
Cinderella III: A Twist in Time
Alice in Wonderland
Tinker Bell
Tinker Bell and the Lost Treasure
Tinker Bell: A Midsummer Storm
Tinker Bell: A Winter Story
Peter Pan
Return to Never Land
Lady and the Tramp
Lady and the Tramp II: Scamp's Adventure
Sleeping Beauty
Disney Princess Enchanted Tales: Follow Your Dreams (Keys to the Kingdom segment)
One Hundred and One Dalmatians
101 Dalmatians II: Patch's London Adventure
The Sword in the Stone
The Jungle Book
The Jungle Book 2
The Aristocats
Robin Hood
The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh
Pooh's Grand Adventure: The Search for Christopher Robin
Winnie the Pooh: Seasons of Giving
The Tigger Movie
Winnie the Pooh: A Very Merry Pooh Year
Piglet's Big Movie
Winnie the Pooh: Springtime with Roo
Pooh's Heffalump Movie
Pooh's Heffalump Halloween Movie
The Rescuers
The Rescuers Down Under
The Fox and the Hound
The Fox and the Hound 2
The Black Cauldron
The Great Mouse Detective
Oliver & Company
The Little Mermaid: Ariel's Beginning
The Little Mermaid
The Little Mermaid II: Return to the Sea
Beauty and the Beast
Beauty and the Beast: The Enchanted Christmas
Beauty and the Beast: Belle's Magical World
Aladdin
The Return of Jafar
Aladdin and the King of Thieves
Disney Princess Enchanted Tales: Follow Your Dreams (More Than a Peacock Princess segment)
The Lion King
The Lion King 1½
The Lion King II: Simba's Pride
Pocahontas
Pocahontas II: Journey to a New World
The Hunchback of Notre Dame
The Hunchback of Notre Dame II
Hercules
Hercules: Zero to Hero
Mulan
Mulan II
Tarzan II
Tarzan
Tarzan & Jane
Dinosaur
The Emperor's New Groove
Kronk's New Groove
Atlantis: The Lost Empire
Atlantis: Milo's Return
Lilo & Stitch
Stitch! The Movie
Lilo & Stitch 2: Stitch Has a Glitch
Leroy & Stitch
Treasure Planet
Brother Bear
Brother Bear 2
Home on the Range
Chicken Little
Meet the Robinsons
Bolt
The Princess and the Frog
Rapunzel
King of the Elves

<<<<
______________________________________________________

Question Three: Looking for a song reflective of Disney’s classic animated films?

I want to make a video of Disney’s classic films using climatic scenes from each movie.

That is why I wanted to know which ratio each film was supposed to be viewed in and what the official term for these 51 animated films is so that my video is correct in its wording and presentation.

Now, the final piece of the puzzle is a song.

I’m looking for just the right song to play over these clips – adding to the mood.

It needs to be sweeping, orchestral, magical, whimsical, and preferably without lyrics.

Here are some examples:

“Flying” by James Newton Howard:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSsngqap9qI

“The Great Eatlon” by James Newton Howard (a little too intense):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bns3DEzFJB4

“What’s This?” by Danny Elfman (a little too upbeat):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGLDDlNE8FY

“Can’t Take It In” by Imogen Heap (I love the opening melody and the pace):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naO8TyQi0-8

“Hoppipolla” by Sigur Ros (Sigur Ros has some lovely, ethereal songs but I can’t seem to find one just right)”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDxMQaMqsig

…Imagine some of the climatic scenes from the 47 released classic Disney films. What song would be able to represent them all? I want it to be beautiful, magical, sweeping, whimsical, haunting, orchestral and if possible, without lyrics.

I can’t quite find what I’m looking for. I know people will suggest “When You Wish Upon a Star” but that feels like I’m being discriminatory. I know that’s essentially the Disney theme song now, but what made Pinocchio better than any of the others? I want something not from any one of the 47 films because I want it to be more original and not single out one film over another.

What song(s) do you think would reflect and match the feel and look of the classic animated Disney films?

They can be classic or more recent. From a band or from a soundtrack. Any song that would be able to capture the emotion of Disney animation.

Thanks!
______________________________________________________

I look forward to all your answers! Any help is appreciated![/i][/b]
Last edited by Neal on September 27th, 2008, 5:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Post by Ben » September 15th, 2008, 9:51 am

"Classics".

There is no official Studio designation, but it is, if anything, referred to in press materials as the Classic or Classics list. The word "canon" isn't the right one to use in this case, as it implies a continuation between the various elements. Disney's films are never continuations (albeit it only twice, for Fantasia and The Rescuers, which would have their own "canon").

The name has changed over the years. In Walt's time, there was no name: it was never seen as a "collection" of films until home video came along in the late 1970s. Back then, they were just Walt Disney's Animated Features, before 1985's The Black Cauldron ushered in the Eisner/Katzenberg/Wells crew and they started labeling the older films "classics" for home video and theatrical re-issues...a basic marketing ploy to make the films more attractive and important.

Since then, they've been careful to get a quote that says "an instant Disney Classic" on the poster, so that any new film can join the "classic" line-up. Even Who Framed Roger Rabbit and The Nightmare Before Christmas were both called a "contemporary classic", in original release (they're not part of this listing though...just for example).

Until 1984, the Disney films came out under the company's Walt Disney Productions moniker. With Eisner/Katzenberg/Wells the company name became The Walt Disney Company, with individual components taking on their own department headers: Theme Parks, WDI, Records, etc, and the film unit, Walt Disney Pictures.

Mickey's Christmas Carol actually went out with two names on the prints: Walt Disney Productions and Walt Disney Pictures, before everything was then Walt Disney Pictures. The animation department at this time unofficially became Walt Disney Pictures Animation, though it wasn't really publicised. When the unit needed a real name, after the success of The Little Mermaid in 1989, it became officially labeled Walt Disney Feature Animation. Roy E Disney wanted to drop the Walt to Disney Feature Animation, but it stuck as the department's name from then on.

The list of films was revised to include <I>only</I> animated films (the list until then had simply counted all films with any animation in them, including The Reluctant Dragon, Song Of The South and even Victory Through Air Power), making The Black Cauldron number 25, and going on from there.

Now, with the renaming to Walt Disney Animation Studios, the listing has unfortunately become so ingrained that it omits some legit titles. The current official list is named "Walt Disney Animation Studios Full-Length Feature Films", if you want to get technical about it, but when it comes to reissues and home video, the marketing and popular referral is Walt Disney Classics.

Now, when it comes to what is and what shouldn't be on that list, is open to another huge debate...!

Hope that helps! :)

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Order In Which To Watch All The Animated Disney Films

Post by Neal » September 21st, 2008, 12:38 pm

I took the 51 released/announced animated Disney films and combined them with the 42 sequels/prequels/midquels/interquels that Disney has produced/announced for them.

In this way, you have a list that uses the animated features canon as a base order to watch the films in, but has all the supplemental films added in.

My rules were that you take the 51 canon films, and then shift around any canon sequels (like shifting The Rescuers Down Under down so that it was right behind The Rescuers , etc.) but all other films in the canon remained in the same place. Then I took all 42 of the sequels/prequels/midquels/interquels/spin-offs, etc. and moved them into place ahead or after their appropriate movie in the canon so that you could match up any continuities. There may be confusion as films like Tarzan II are prequels to the original but have the '2' suffix. However, I believe I did this right.

The sequels/prequels, etc. had to be at least 60 minutes ("feature-length") to be included. So such shorts as Winne the Pooh and a Day for Eeyore are not counted as sequels as they aren't "feature-length".

See, I want to watch ALL the Disney animated films - original canon and sequels - before Princess and the Frog comes out. Sort of a refresher course for it. And I want to watch them in order. But rather than watch the 51 canon films in order, and then go back and watch the sequels in order, I thought it made more sense to inject the sequels into their proper place in the canon.

Please read my list and make sure I placed all the films in the proper place. Also, check to see if I missed out on any sequels, prequels, midquels, interquels, spin-offs or spiritual succesor films. The canon is easily defined, but the sequels don't have an official "list" so I might have missed some. Please see if I did. I want a complete list!

All that said, here's my list:

>>>>

Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs
Pinocchio
Fantasia
Fantasia 2000
Dumbo
Bambi
Bambi II
Saludos Amigos
The Three Caballeros
Make Mine Music
Fun and Fancy Free
Mickey, Donald, Goofy: The Three Musketeers
Melody Time
The Adventures of Ichabod and Mr. Toad
Cinderella
Cinderella II: Dreams Come True
Cinderella III: A Twist in Time
Alice in Wonderland
Tinker Bell
Tinker Bell and the Lost Treasure
Tinker Bell: A Midsummer Storm
Tinker Bell: A Winter Story
Peter Pan
Return to Never Land
Lady and the Tramp
Lady and the Tramp II: Scamp's Adventure
Sleeping Beauty
Disney Princess Enchanted Tales: Follow Your Dreams (Keys to the Kingdom segment)
One Hundred and One Dalmatians
101 Dalmatians II: Patch's London Adventure
The Sword in the Stone
The Jungle Book
The Jungle Book 2
The Aristocats
Robin Hood
The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh
Pooh's Grand Adventure: The Search for Christopher Robin
Winnie the Pooh: Seasons of Giving
The Tigger Movie
Winnie the Pooh: A Very Merry Pooh Year
Piglet's Big Movie
Winnie the Pooh: Springtime with Roo
Pooh's Heffalump Movie
Pooh's Heffalump Halloween Movie
The Rescuers
The Rescuers Down Under
The Fox and the Hound
The Fox and the Hound 2
The Black Cauldron
The Great Mouse Detective
Oliver & Company
The Little Mermaid: Ariel's Beginning
The Little Mermaid
The Little Mermaid II: Return to the Sea
Beauty and the Beast
Beauty and the Beast: The Enchanted Christmas
Beauty and the Beast: Belle's Magical World
Aladdin
The Return of Jafar
Aladdin and the King of Thieves
Disney Princess Enchanted Tales: Follow Your Dreams (More Than a Peacock Princess segment)
The Lion King
The Lion King 1½
The Lion King II: Simba's Pride
Pocahontas
Pocahontas II: Journey to a New World
The Hunchback of Notre Dame
The Hunchback of Notre Dame II
Hercules
Hercules: Zero to Hero
Mulan
Mulan II
Tarzan II
Tarzan
Tarzan & Jane
Dinosaur
The Emperor's New Groove
Kronk's New Groove
Atlantis: The Lost Empire
Atlantis: Milo's Return
Lilo & Stitch
Stitch! The Movie
Lilo & Stitch 2: Stitch Has a Glitch
Leroy & Stitch
Treasure Planet
Brother Bear
Brother Bear 2
Home on the Range
Chicken Little
Meet the Robinsons
Bolt
The Princess and the Frog
Rapunzel
King of the Elves

<<<<

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Post by Neal » September 21st, 2008, 12:48 pm

Yeah, it helps. Too bad there isn't anything that's just officially - official! Thanks!

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Post by Daniel » September 21st, 2008, 3:24 pm

That looks about right. Wow, that's a quite a list! Are you going to go out and buy these movies or just rent them? Obviously the ones that are available.

If you want my personal opinion, I would watch Cindy III before II. It benefits some, mainly in the third act. I don't want to spoil anything, but it makes what happens in II more believable. III is hands down the better of two, though. :)

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Re:

Post by Neal » September 21st, 2008, 3:54 pm

I already own almost all of the listed films either on VHS or DVD (I'm missing just 2 of the 46 released canon films - Melody Time & Sleeping Beauty, and missing 12 of the 38 released sequels films - 5 of which are Pooh films) but have only seen a handful. I'll be watching all of classic Disney for the first time on my way to seeing PaTF. Even though I love Disney, my parents didn't buy as any of the films as kids or take us to see them. Mainly I saw them on TV and my parents would record them off the Disney channel. I've bought the bulk of the films in the last year mainly at second hand shops or at stores that have old DVDs because no one buys them there - like the local feed store. Who'd think to buy movies at a feed store? Well, they had Bambi II. It's been a big track-down adventure.

As for Cinderella - I have never heard that suggestion before. Being as I haven't seen 2 or 3 all the way through, I wouldn't know. Some of the films like Tarzan 2 I knew were midquels. For others, I went by the continuity of numbers - so Cindy 2 then 3.

Thanks for the suggestion!

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Post by EricJ » September 21st, 2008, 3:57 pm

Leaving aside the fact that Life's Too Short To Watch Disney Sequels<TM>:

Canon isn't everything--
I've tried numerous times to buy a complete Narnia book set at Barnes & Noble, and now can't, because some idiot at CS Lewis' publishing estate insisted that "Magician's Nephew" be chronologically "first", "Wardrobe" second, and that "Prince Caspian" has to be fourth, because "Horse & His Boy" was "earlier in history".

...Because of people like you. People exactly like YOU. >:(

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Post by Neal » September 21st, 2008, 4:01 pm

I don't understand how you can't buy a complete set... There's a box set with all 7 books in the now 'canonized' order that's been out for years and is at eveey Borders or Barnes & Noble I've ever seen. Seriously.
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Post by EricJ » September 21st, 2008, 5:23 pm

I AIN'T buying canonized. That's the point.

(The point that gets lost when fans delve too geekily into overanalysis for trivia's sake, and put themselves through efforts best avoided...) :wink:

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Re:

Post by Neal » September 21st, 2008, 6:02 pm

I really don't see how that's such a big deal. Buy the box set and then re-order the box any way you feel like. It's not like the affixed numbers or anything "The Chronicles of Narnia 1: The Magician's Nephew" or "The Chronicles of Narnia 2: The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe" - they put it in order not for the geeks, but for the non-geeks. Geeks would know what order makes most sense because of the fact they know the books so in depth. The layman consumer won't know that, and will expect what they're buying to be in a sensible, congruent order - not buying the books in a potentially 'out-of-order' arrangement.

So it's not the geek's fault.

And just because a book that comes first is published later in the main series it can't be put in the proper place? What about when an author writes a prequel to their main series? It's wrong for the publishers/marketers to move the prequel into its place in front of the main series? How is that so wrong?

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Post by tyler283455 » September 22nd, 2008, 5:32 pm

Daniel wrote:That looks about right. Wow, that's a quite a list! Are you going to go out and buy these movies or just rent them? Obviously the ones that are available.

If you want my personal opinion, I would watch Cindy III before II. It benefits some, mainly in the third act. I don't want to spoil anything, but it makes what happens in II more believable. III is hands down the better of two, though. :)
Totally agree. When the other 2 Cinderella's came out I said none of them would even be close to the first one. When I watched the second it was kind of cool seeing some of the stuff Cinderella went through being a princess, but 3 was amazing. It was one of the best disney movies I have seen.
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Post by Ben » September 22nd, 2008, 6:25 pm

With respect, I need to say that this is..."dumb", and I'm really not making that comment as an affront to you, Neal, or to be rude.

I just don't get the point. Most of that stuff isn't "Disney" animation. Most of it is commercial franchsing and not animation art. And you're missing a fair few titles too, if you want to get compulsively obsessive about things.

I mean, the Tinker Bell films? I'd like to see how you're going to catch the last two before Christmas 09. ;)

Putting sequels right after some of those originals doesn't make sense either. I mean, there are whole different filmmaking attitudes going on between the original film and the made-for-money retreads. In a way, it <I>could</I> be an interesting comparison exercise, to run two films from vastly different production backgrounds, but that's not what or why you're doing this.

And the list is <I>really</I> confused when it starts to interject the video compilations...these are not even sequel/prequel/mid-quels, they're the equivalent to those cartoon compilations of the 1980s, which if you're going to include you may as well go all out and hunt down all the Disneyland TV episode comps too!

But...hey, it's your life. Good luck cramming that in by this time next year...



BTW...I merged this with your earlier "canon" thread, as this is obviously a discussion sprouting from that question. Although, as mentioned and mentioned again before, "canon" is really not the word.

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Re:

Post by Neal » September 22nd, 2008, 11:16 pm

I can understand you calling this 'dumb' but it is my prerogative.

Now, I know many of those films were made under Eisner's regime where their true point was to make some major $$$. However, it's not like the people working on these films were a bunch of slimy sleazeballs, rubbing their hands together villainously with dollar signs in their eyes. Many of these people were animation artists. Not up to scale as those working at WDAS in California, but people who loved their job. They just weren't given very good material to work with.

It could have ended up looking like this:

http://kakumei.deviantart.com/art/ariel-56950765
http://strawberrygina.deviantart.com/ar ... le-Mermaid

Not very true to the originals, eh? They actually hired artists talented and caring enough to create characters that looked and breathed the same as the more professional originals. The stories they were crafting these characters for, however, weren't always top-notch.

If the main intent of the films was to just shovel them onto shelves, I don't think they would have bothered to get Elton John, Phil Collins, Melissa Etheridge, Jeanne Tesori and others back. They could have hired some joe blow off the streets of Australia down there and have him slap some songs together. Andreas Deja was a consultant on Bambi II, for instance. These weren't all a bunch of middle class nothings. They tried a little. And the people who animated these films weren't Mark Henn or Eric Goldberg, but they did at least care about their work. Sharon Morrill was a puppet of Eisner, but some people working on these films did love their work.

I fully understand the 51 released/announced films are Disney's official "chronology" "classics" "canon" or what have you. Those are the films produced in California, and deserve the stamp as Disney's truest and finest efforts. The real art of Disney.

I just wanted to watch all the Disney character films by next year. In no way did I mean to imply the sequels, etc. were anywhere near on par the official films. But they aren't all steaming piles of poo, either. I just wanted to watch everything Disney. If I watch two a weekend next year I could do it.

Cinderella III, Lion King 1 1/2, Pooh's Heffalump Movie - these are some examples of the standout sequels. They aren't absolutely dreadful films.

As for "why not track down the TV compilations?" Well, films like Tarzan & Jane which have some TV shows in them had animation added to make them into film-like features. So there IS a difference. They weren't just DVDs with three episodes. There were bumpers added. That's why I didn't count shorts. The Many Adventures of Winne the Pooh was just three shorts with some added animation. That's similar to how Tarzan & Jane worked. But it's considered a film in its own right because they added prefixes and suffixes to tie it all together as one. Hence "package films".

So they are considered films. So there's no reason for me to go the the TV shows, too.

Besides the TV shows, what are some of the other "fair few" titles I'm missing? If at this point you are even still reading or care to deal with me further. :roll:

As for the Tinker Bell films, two of the four will be out by then so I think I'll just watch them. I had all four on the list because although this list will be what I use in my quest to watch all the films, I also wanted it to be a resource so I just added everything - whether I'll be able to watch it or not.

No one's ever combined the sequels canon with the original canon like this before. People always re-post the 51 film animated canon, but there's no complete list of the sequels anywhere. Wikipedia's is wrong as are others.

So I wanted to make a resource. A resource for die-hard fans, maybe, but I'm not the only one who finds this a useful list.

Finally, I don't really see how a topic on what to call Disney's 51 official films and a topic that lists all "Disney" films ever are similar enough to merge, but you're wearing the title of moderator, not me.

I hope you don't think I'm a dolt. There are a surprising number of people who actually enjoy the sequels, etc. well enough. That's because these people know the point of the sequels was entertainment, not art. The classic films are meant to be revolutionary, artistic, and entertaining. The sequels are for the people who say "I love Ariel so much I can't get enough of her!" So they get LM II and LM: Ariel's Beginning. The point is to offer more chances for fans to see these characters, spend time with them - not be top tier animations. If you can distinguish the difference, than I don't think the sequels defecated on the originals.

You just have to understand why each line of film exists.

And many intelligent, loyal, discerning Disney fans can - and thereby enjoy the original films as being beautiful pillars of animation, and the sequels as fun, indulgent supplements. I love all the Pooh sequels. To me, they are really just indulgences so I can spend more time with some of my favorite Disney characters. If I was expecting the films to be as timeless, endearing and masterful as the originals, then of course I'd see them as insults. You just got to accept that they are there to indulge our fancies - let us see a little more of our favorite characters. Entertain us, not be gold.

As for me, however, I'm just a Disney enthusiast in the most extreme sense of the word.

And maybe I'm stretching it, but even in Disney's most subpar sequels like Piglet's Big Movie or The Hunchback of Notre Dame II, there's a lot more heart and warmth than some of DreamWorks top efforts like Shrek 3.
Last edited by Neal on October 19th, 2008, 2:15 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by droosan » September 23rd, 2008, 12:31 am

I don't think you're a dolt.

But I do think you're over-thinking the concept of 'Disney canon' .. and perhaps taking it way too seriously; which can be 'off-putting', to some folks. :idea:

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Post by GeorgeC » September 23rd, 2008, 1:04 am

Whoa,

Neal has a major attitude problem.

You just called one of the webmasters a naughty name.

Now I admittedly have some problems dealing with people face-to-face but even I know enough of Miss Manners to NOT call Ben names to his face!

(Now behind his back and offline is another thing, but still to type it out to be viewed by thousands? Bad form!)

That's a very good way to get banned from any website.

FYI, I was as much a Disney fan as anybody majorly into American CLASSICS years ago and I NEVER heard of an official canon that included ANY of the direct-to-video sequels (disparagingly called "cheapquels" by many Disneyphiles and animation professionals).

Canon's an oxymoron at any rate. At best, it's a general timeline or collection determined by the property/IP owner of the moment. Talk to overly-enthusiastic Star Trek fans. They still don't understand Star Trek canon is determined by whoever the designated caretaker (by Paramount Studios) of Star Trek is at that moment and that fan fiction and fanon do not equal canon.

I suspect the same is true with Disney.

There are many more important things to ponder and worry about in real life.

This is way too anal even for me!

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