Toy Story 3

[Randall]

First of all, you make good points in Bolt's favor. It does have some admirable qualities. So, I'm not really arguing here. (Of course, The Fox and the Hound had good points and "realistic" actions too, but it's no great classic either--- just a good movie.) Just a few points to make to keep the conversation going:

I kinda thought that Lotso's insistence on staying "bad," despite being given the opportunity to improve himself, was actually sadly realistic. if you really want true-to-life storytelling, I would argue that a third act redemption would actually be overly corny.

In a way, Lotso's refusal to behave better, thus becoming effectively irredeemable, also played to the point that this was a path that Woody would want to avoid at all costs.

Again, personal preferences aside, but there is a long tradition of bad guys in films, and I don't see that changing to any great degree anytime soon. (See: most Disney movies.) In the real world, a lot of problems really are caused by--- if not "evil" people necessarily--- people with power who use it to their own selfish ends. However, Pixar films like Ratatouille, Up, and Wall*E--- even Monsters, Inc. and Finding Nemo, really--- do not rely on featured villains throughout the movie, so it may be disengenuous to say that they "always" do that.

Oh, and the alien dudes in TS3 were there in other scenes as well; they just dropped out of sight for a little while, getting ready for their heroic re-appearance.

[Ben]

Carl...I'm not going to start agreeing with you too much on Bolt itself (what I said about the film is how I feel about it: it's decent enough, but not anything that won't be seen as a secondary title in Disney's feature list in years to come).

But I will say that I agree with much of what you just highlighted about Toy Story 3, some of which I did actually touch on in my Blu-ray review of the film. But I will say that I agree with Rand in having Lotso "develop" to changing his mind and saving the toys would have been just as clumsy an ending as The Claaaw, which I didn't find satisfying either.

Mostly, I didn't like that TS3 borrowed so much from the previous two films: whereas the first and second were progressions, the third film (in terms of content, not actual structure) referred way too much to similar occurrences from the previous films, as has been mentioned here.

But, then, you could argue that Bolt simply went through the motions in terms of its plot and character arcs, which followed the "deluded star doesn't realize what is going on is real" ideas that older movie fans will have seen quite a few times before.

[carlminez]

I'm not in the habit of leaving comments unanswered.

Again, personal preferences aside, but there is a long tradition of bad guys in films, and I don't see that changing to any great degree anytime soon. (See: most Disney movies.) In the real world, a lot of problems really are caused by--- if not "evil" people necessarily--- people with power who use it to their own selfish ends. However, Pixar films like Ratatouille, Up, and Wall*E--- even Monsters, Inc. and Finding Nemo, really--- do not rely on featured villains throughout the movie, so it may be disengenuous to say that they "always" do that.

Yes, that’s certainly true. In fact, one of the things I used to love about Pixar is how they moved away from the old formula á la evil villain, dualism and a cast consisting of many but meaningless characters. Instead, Pixar movies focused on the character development of a few, meaningful characters. Pixar is still my favorite animated studio, but with the overly glorified Toy Story 3, I feel that Andrew Stanton and Lee Unkrich (and Pixar). have taken a huge step backwards.

Carl...I'm not going to start agreeing with you too much on Bolt itself (what I said about the film is how I feel about it: it's decent enough, but not anything that won't be seen as a secondary title in Disney's feature list in years to come).

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that’s awfully sad. Bolt is being left behind, unnoticed all its worth, and the fact that many moviegoers preferred that stupid hamster over the other characters, and the movie’s themes regarding trust and self-awareness, speaks volumes about how people failed to appreciate the depth in this movie. In my opinion, Bolt is almost like a diamond in the rough. But it’s still a failure on Chris William and Byron Howard’s part.

But, then, you could argue that Bolt simply went through the motions in terms of its plot and character arcs, which followed the "deluded star doesn't realize what is going on is real" ideas that older movie fans will have seen quite a few times before.

Well Bolt has been compared to both Toy Story and The Truman Show.

“However, other than that their premise sounds very much alike, it could be argued that none of these characters has much in common with Bolt. As written by Ryan Crackdell on MovieReviews.com “Although very much akin to Buzz Lightyear in synopsis, it’s played out more like The Truman Show, where realizations come about in layers and there’s a lasting push to become one’s self, not a character to be consumed through media.” Furthermore, while Bolt is a story about trust, loyalty and the many canine virtues that Bolt represents, Truman Show is more of an allegory for God and solipsism.”

Got this from a wiki article about one of the characters.

[GeorgeC]

Plans are in progress for the next release...!

"Dusty 2.5... You'll 'appreciate' this thread more the previous version!"

[carlminez]

Dusty 2.5? What are you talking about? Is this some kind of intern-joke?

[Dacey]

Pixar is still my favorite animated studio

Error...error...this does not compute with ANYTHING that you've said on here so far.

I'm actually going to agree with you somewhat about "Bolt" being a better movie than "Toy Story 3." Truth be told, I don't watch it all that often, but everytime I do I'm surprised by how much I like it, as I tend to forget how good it is. The characters are fun, the animation is great, and the storyline is predictable but still decent.

Still, the film's lack of a villain--or any threat for that matter--could be used as a notable weakness. The director character was so developed upon as an obsessive guy in that one scene that he's in that I can't help but wonder if he was gonna chase after Bolt as a "bad guy" at one point. Instead, we got the agent, who was a truly annoying character. And not in a "Yeah, he's supposed to be annoying" kind of way. In an annoying kind of way.

Also, Chloe Grace Moretz (Hit-Girl in "Kick-Ass") had apparently recorded all of Penny's line, before Disney decided that the movie needed a commercial push and let Miley Cyrus dub over her performance. Not that I have anything against Cyrus--or her voice acting, for that matter--but Penny looked twelve but sounded 16. It was kinda weird.

And for all your criticism of Pixar, you do realize that John L fired Chris Sanders because his version of the film "wasn't Disney enough." And that the response was to make it, well, more like a Pixar film? Now, as I said, I enjoy the film as it is, but knowing how great Chris is, I can't help but think that this was comparable to booting Brad Bird off a project. What if he had been fired from The Incredibles because it "wasn't Pixar enough"? Who knows what an original film Chris Sanders' "American Dog" might've been?

As for TS3, the first time I saw it, I loved it. It was one of my best movie going experiences of 2010, and I left the theater fully satisfied. Since then, though, all the gushing has made me sick of it, and I stand by what I've said elsewhere about it not being worthy of the Best Animated Feature win, or the Best Picture nomination that it got for that matter.

Having said that, this topic seems kinda...pointless. Essentially, it seems to be a "Bolt was awesome, TS3 wasn't" rant, and one that probably didn't need its own topic. Around here, we only have one topic per movie.

[Ben]

"Bolt is being left behind; many moviegoers preferred that stupid hamster over the other characters..."

- No, Bolt is being left about where it is deserved. As for people liking the stupid hamster, perhaps Bolt would be getting more respect around here IF the stupid hamster wasn't in the thing to begin with.


"Well Bolt has been compared to both Toy Story and The Truman Show."

- No, I wasn't talking about Truman, although that's the most obvious one that kept being brought up when Bolt came out. I almost made mention that it wasn't Truman I was talking about, but then I thought it was either obvious that I wasn't talking about Truman (since Truman and Bolt have almost nothing in common), or I wanted to see if you would bring the "obvious" link up...thanks for obliging. Film history is full of films with similar basic plots about characters who don't know their "fake" situation is "real": it's a concept that goes back almost to the dawn of film itself.


"Dusty 2.5? What are you talking about? Is this some kind of intern-joke?"

- Yes, basically. We have another rather "enthusiastic" member around here who has one opinion and one opinion only, and chooses to share it above actually engaging and having any other kind of conversation. As you've witnessed, other members here have picked up on your similar zeal, but I'm still hoping you're not going to make yourself as annoying as he can be. Oops...in under 30 posts you've already managed to do that...


"Not that I have anything against Miley Cyrus but Penny looked twelve but sounded 16."

- My biggest problem with the film, too. And such a shame that the only reason they switched her lines was to get a popular name on the poster.


"Having said that, this topic seems kinda...pointless. Essentially, it seems to be a "Bolt was awesome, TS3 wasn't" rant, and one that probably didn't need its own topic. Around here, we only have one topic per movie."

- Yep...I have a feeling either this topic is soon going to be locked, or merged with our previous TS3 thread. I don't even get why Bolt is the "comparison" here: it didn't come out in the same year or have any other directorial or crew connection. I also don't get why Andrew Stanton is in another firing line: he didn't have anything to do with TS3! Sometimes it's ever so sad when an intense argument for something turns out to cloud all other aspects and, ultimately, just makes someone sound like a tirade-bursting, increasingly incoherent and unfortunately groove-stuck broken record...

[carlminez]

Wait, what? Bolt had nothing to do with this thread, other than the picture comparison. I just mentioned Bolt and How To Train Your Dragon in my first thread post. You guys brought Bolt up in this conversation. Randall started comparing TS3 to Bolt in his latest post, and Ben jumped in with his personal opinions on the movie. I was happy to discuss Bolt, of course, but I was not the one who steered the subject into that conversation to begin with.

As you've witnessed, other members here have picked up on your similar zeal, but I'm still hoping you're not going to make yourself as annoying as he can be. Oops...in under 30 posts you've already managed to do that...

Woah! Don't you think you are exaggerating a bit? I mean that's just mean. Aren't administrators supposed to lead by example?

[Ben]

Okay, now you're being scary (replying just minutes after my post - I didn't even have time to log out!) and not even making sense!

You brought Bolt up immediately in your first post. You. Did. This was a "TS3 is lame/Bolt is great" topic long before anyone else entered the fray.

As for leading by example...we've been running this thing long enough to spot a crackpot early on. Anyone who comes in here screaming their "views" in everyone's faces and is just plain antagonistic to all replies and any other opinions should be strong enough to take a little flack back. And if you're going to come here and start "ranting" (your word) from the start, then we really have very little interest in trying to continue a reasonable conversation with you.

Besides, unless I am mistaken, and to quote a famous alley cat...haven't we met somewhere before?

[carlminez]

Okay, now you're being scary

That’s not scary. I’m sitting in front of my PC and I get a mail every time you reply. I don’t know how long time you spend with your posts but I can answer you relatively fast.

Nonetheless, that is irrelevant.

“You brought Bolt up immediately in your first post. You. Did. This was a "TS3 is lame/Bolt is great" topic long before anyone else entered the fray.”

I mentioned Bolt two times in my first post. Together with HTTYD. The main focus was Toy Story 3, all along. Bolt was brought up again in Randall’s post. “Sorry, but I felt that it had about 8 times more heart than Bolt, a minor movie I intially reacted to with utter indifference, though I liked it more the second time” etc. I did reply to that message, and I mentioned Bolt once.

Later, you came in with your message writing “I'm not sure that anyone (else) would really step up and suggest that Bolt was anything but an entertaining kids/family film that had a little fun.”

It’s not anything important. There is no question about the fact that I’m obsessed with this movie. But I do want to make it clear that this thread was about Toy Story 3, originally. And I’d be more than happy to leave Bolt behind if that’s what you want.

As for leading by example...we've been running this thing long enough to spot a crackpot early on.

That’s hardly an excuse. If you feel that I’m being too “monotone” in my interests then feel free to tell me. But your last post was simply an insult. It’s as simple as that.

Now, I understand that this is a very small forum. And that most people here already know each other. But if you feel that I’ve been violating any forum rules, or posting offensive comments, then just send me a PM or give me a warning and the problem is solved.

haven't we met somewhere before?

Now you are the one being scary. I don’t remember ever meeting you before. Though it certainly would explain a lot...

[GeorgeC]

"Dusty 2.5? What are you talking about? Is this some kind of intern-joke?"

- Yes, basically. We have another rather "enthusiastic" member around here who has one opinion and one opinion only, and chooses to share it above actually engaging and having any other kind of conversation. As you've witnessed, other members here have picked up on your similar zeal, but I'm still hoping you're not going to make yourself as annoying as he can be. Oops...in under 30 posts you've already managed to do that...

... And this is why real life can't be topped for sheer comic enjoyment!

[Whippet Angel]

Pixar is still my favorite animated studio

Um, yeah... I could've sworn that you repeatedly stated in several other threads that you hated Pixar.

Ah well. As confusing as this thread is becoming, at least we persuaded him to drastically change an opinion. That's more than can be said for Dusty.

enjoy the film as it is, but knowing how great Chris is, I can't help but think that this was comparable to booting Brad Bird off a project. What if he had been fired from The Incredibles because it "wasn't Pixar enough"? Who knows what an original film Chris Sanders' "American Dog" might've been?

Oh goodness, not this argument again. As great as Chris is, we all know that American Dog was most likely a yin that suffered from missing its yang. The yang in question being Dean DeBlois, who the fans seem to forget is half of the reason Stitch and HTTYD were so good.

[carlminez]

Um, yeah... I could've sworn that you repeatedly stated in several other threads that you hated Pixar.

Ah well. As confusing as this thread is becoming, at least we persuaded him to drastically change an opinion. That's more than can be said for Dusty.

Did you all scare him away from this forum or is this Dusty fellow still active?

I still hate Pixar because they are terribly terribly overrated. However, I don't normally watch animated movies, but when I do it's mostly Pixar movies. Thus making Pixar my favorite studio when it comes to animated movies. (its logical when you think about it) HTTYD is the only good Dreamworks movie I can think of. But creating a thread about how much I hate Dreamworks would be... mainstream.

My favorite movie is Stalker by Tarkovskij. Bolt is the only animated movie I really, truly loved.

[Ben]

"I don’t know how long time you spend with your posts but I can answer you relatively fast."

- Um...WHO is being rude!?


"It’s not anything important."

- Obviously, it is to someone.


"If you feel that I’m being too “monotone” in my interests then feel free to tell me."

- I think you must have picked up on our general impression before now...?


"I don’t remember ever meeting you before. Though it certainly would explain a lot..."

- Okay, I don't even know what that could possibly mean!

[carlminez]

Okay, I don't even know what that could possibly mean!

Just explain what you meant with "Besides, unless I am mistaken, and to quote a famous alley cat...haven't we met somewhere before?"

And this post took me about 2 seconds.