The Muppets

[Randall]

We just watched The Muppets Take Manhattan this week, and it hasn't been too long since we viewed the first two movies in my house as well. And ya know what? They're not really that great. Parts of them are wonderful, and each had grand technical achievements and a lot of heart, but they haven't aged terribly well. I worship at the altar of The Muppet Show, love many of the TV specials, and admire the heck out of Jim Henson, but those first three films were just... okay (with Great Muppet Caper probably being my favorite of the three). The only Muppet movie I truly love is the post-Jim A Muppet Christmas Carol (I assume Brian did actually handle that one?).

What I'm saying is, let's keep it all in perspective. It won't really be that hard to live up to the first three films, and the new one's gotta be better than Muppets From Space. The new film actually looks very promising, I think.

[EricJ]

The first Muppet Movie summed up the whole goofy naivety that the original show was about, but for Caper and Manhattan, Jim and Frank basically hired the worst directors they could: Themselves.
Jim, never particularly an intense director, buried Caper in flip fourth-wall running gags (and his obsession with showing the characters in full shot riding bicycles)...While Frank basically had his solo debut on Manhattan, tried to play "realistic" or "modern 40's retro" and didn't seem to end up with either.
The first movie, they knew they needed a professional to keep it together or the thing wouldn't work, so they hired James Frawley, who was already used to goofy semi-improvisation with his work on the better episodes of The Monkees.

FMM, the second best Muppet movie, in the spirit of the first, was Ken Kwapis' direction on "Sesame Street: Follow That Bird".
Sometimes you need an outsider to keep from being too close to your own material, but when you're talking about "Flight of the Conchords" and "Da Ali G SHow".....that's TOO outside.

[Ben]

I won't hear a word said against the original Henson trilogy!

But, then again, I'm probably too close and remembering being on Caper's set can't help me be objective! It's true that all three are not always tight, but they're still darned good entertainment. I saw Manhattan again recently too, and the water works still well up when they're "Saying Goodbye": that's all Henson heart right there. Yes, the slow, slow bike ride in Caper can be painful, but that was technology in action there (I always think they'd have done well to undercrank the camera so that the life was restored to those shots).

I'll admit, though, that Christmas Carol is probably the best (yep, Brian was more "around" for that one), because they had a lot to prove. Hey, kind of like this new one, which is why I think we could be in safe hands (better than Kwapis, anyway).

And you have to remember that those guys making Conchords and such are the ones that were influenced by the Muppets growing up, and they want to see the luster restored just as much as we do.

Anyway, we're all starting to sound like broken records (or skipping CDs? Or corrupt mp3s?). We're all excited and want it to be good, Eric's waiting for it to fail.

Moving right along...

[Ben]

New trailer is here:

http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.asp?NID=32212


Haha...they're using CeeLo Green's recent hit (his MTV live performance of which obviously referenced Elton John on The Muppet Show). I wonder if that would be..."Cluck You"!?

[EricJ]

Haha...they're using CeeLo Green's recent hit

Oh, so "recent hits" are inherently funny?
Okay, then the scene of the Barbershop Quartet, with Sam, Rowlf, Link and Beaker? They sing Nirvana's "Smells Like Teen Spirit". Yuk, yuk.
(And to those about to say "But what about all the current hits in the original movies?"...well, they didn't start that until "Muppets From Space", and for pretty much the same cheap reasons. The good ones had Paul Williams songs.)

And in what was supposed to be a "tribute" gag, but only comes off as smugly tasteless, the tough "Moopets" gang tries to muscle in by singing "Rainbow Connection". (Although whether as a suddenly sentimental version, or a gangsta/Backstreet version, remains to be seen).

InsidetheMagic.net already posted a list of the soundtrack songs, and even there, you can get a pretty comprehensive microcosm of the entire script storyline and gags...Don't say I didn't warn you;

Full soundtrack song listing for “The Muppets”:
1. The Muppet Show Theme – The Muppets
2. Muppet Studios, I Can’t Believe It – Walter
3. Life’s a Happy Song – Jason Segel, Amy Adams and Walter
4. I Haven’t Seen the Old Gang – Kermit and Jason Segel
5. Pictures in My Head – Kermit and The Muppets
6. We Drive – Kermit and Walter
7. Me and Julio Down by the Schoolyard – Paul Simon
8. That Spells Reno – 80’s Robot and Amy Adams
9. Rainbow Connection (Moopets Version) – The Moopets
10. Welcome Back – Kermit, Fozzie, Walter and Dr. Teeth
11. We Built This City – Starship
12. Party of One* – Sarah Silverman and Amy Adams
13. Me Party – Amy Adams and Miss Piggy
14. We Humbly Ask – Kermit and Chris Cooper
15. Let’s Talk About Me – Chris Cooper
16. The Answer Is No – Chris Cooper and Kermit
17. Are You a Man or a Muppet? – Amy Adams
18. Man or Muppet – Jason Segel and Walter
19. Down at the Ole Barbershop – Kermit
20. Smells Like Teen Spirit – The Muppet Barbershop Quartet
21. Princesses of Poultry – Kermit
22. Forget You – Camilla and The Chickens
23. It’s Time for Our Song – Kermit and Miss Piggy
24. Rainbow Connection – The Muppets
25. Get Out There and Help Those Guys – Jason Segel
26. The Whistling Caruso – Andrew Bird
27. How Charming, a Finale – Uncle Deadly
28. Life’s a Happy Song Finale – Entire Cast
29. Mary, Marry Me – Jason Segel and Amy Adams
30. Mah Na Mah Na – Mahna Mahna and The Two Snowths* Dialog Track

To quote the MST3K line: "Ohh, the humor...the humor.... "

[Ben]

Oh, so "recent hits" are inherently funny?

- Yes. When they're sung by Chickens, yes.

But the words "point" and "miss" come to mind.

I wasn't saying the use or even the song was funny, but it's being "sung" by CHICKENS for Frith's sake...that's just funny whatever the song.

As for the soundtrack, even the trailer makes it clear that we're going to get a faithful rendition of Rainbow Connection: what else would the cast be singing around Kermit on that staged log, banjo in hand!?

Seemingly your perusal of the soundtrack list (yes! Loads of songs!) failed to spot the obvious there: "Rainbow Connection" not by The Moopets, but by The Muppets.

Whatever this movie was, you'd want it to fail, and now I think you're just baiting people and attempting to draw them into an argument (and don't say "looks like I succeeded then" since I chose to explain my comments, not take a bite), like a Muppet troll...

[EricJ]

Well, at least I didn't do the joke about:
"So, are Jason & Amy in the poster trying to 'hold the Muppets back', or barge in and camera-hog in front of them?...Because I've seen them grab most of the funny lines in the trailer, and I have MY guess which one. "

[Ben]

Or could it just be that Disney wants to make sure their co-stars don't get swamped in the marketing?

After all, Seigel and Adams are just as important to the success of this film in bringing in the Apatow and Enchanted crowds as the Muppets themselves are.

[EricJ]

Yes, but "insider" that you are , I'd have thought you would have sided with a few of the longtimers currently reacting to the movie:
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/d ... 805?page=2

There is a list of similar concerns: Kermit would never live in a mansion, as he does in this movie. The Muppets, depicted in the script as jealous of Kermit's wealth, would not have broken up in bitterness. The script "creates a false history that the characters were forced to act out for the sake of this movie," says an old Muppets hand.
.....
Frank Oz, the most famous living Muppets performer -- known best as Miss Piggy -- spoke more harshly in a recent interview with the British paper Metro. "I wasn't happy with the script," he said bluntly. "I don't think they respected the characters. But I don't want to go on about it like a sourpuss and hurt the movie."
.....
Even the old guard acknowledges that Segel wants to do right by the Muppets, but many feel the pervasive attitude on the film was dismissive of those who originated the characters.
Disney and Segel's reps declined comment on issues raised by Muppets insiders. A source involved with the production says he is aware that some of the Muppets performers had concerns but believes those were largely allayed as they saw the passion of Segel and others involved in the movie. "Maybe they were saying things behind our backs," he acknowledges. "But to our faces, they seem happy."

(Kermit caused a "breakup" of the Muppets because they were "jealous" he was acting like a star?
Ohh, Jason, there is one basic rule of the Muppet universe that you DON'T KNOW. And until you do, your sentimental-baby-boomer act isn't fooling anyone.)

[Dacey]

So, Eric has a vendetta against Jason Segal...why exactly?

[EricJ]

To further quote:

The fact that Disney moved ahead on the script Segel wrote with Nicholas Stoller left the old Muppets pros suspicious, as one puts it, that "this is a case of Disney wanting to get into the Jason Segel business," as opposed to reviving the franchise. This insider adds, "My biggest hope is that it comes across as a Muppets film and not a Jason Segel film that the Muppets happen to be in."
.....
The concern among Muppets insiders is that Segel and director James Bobin (a writer on Da Ali G Show and Flight of the Conchords) didn't have a complete understanding of the Muppets characters or were willing to sacrifice the characters' integrity to land a joke. "They're looking at the script on a joke-by-joke basis, rather than as a construction of character and story," says one.

...Oh, we're getting that faint impression, huh?
I was already getting it after the second pop-culture parody trailer. Never mind the fifth or sixth.

[Dacey]

I'd comment here...but you know what? Why even bother anymore?

[Ben]

I know how you feel Dacey.

But as we all know, things need to change in order to appeal and stay relevant. Sometimes this does happen for the worst but sometimes it does happen for the better.

And at the end of the day what would most of us prefer: some new blood at least giving it a go on returning to the old magic? Or more Wizard Of Oz and Letters To Santa...?

[EricJ]

Uh, as Wizard of Oz and Santa (AND Very Muppet Christmas, which was also putting out "dismissive gag" vibes even uglier than the current insiders are sensing) were made with "new blood" too--or at least without almost any participation by the Old blood--I'm not exactly sure what your point is.
This seems to be more Part of the Problem, than the Solution.

Despite every possible insult to injury, you continually champion the point of "But it's NEW!"
And most of the longtimers--who've worked with the characters for years, instead of dabbling in it for a nostalgic vanity lark--seem to be saying "Yeah, sure as heck IS, isn't it? "

(Every quoted insider talks about how the tone of the script and direction has gone against every quality they've created for the franchise, and yet that they're "hopeful" Segel will suddenly do a 180, turn around and be the next Jerry Juhl out of nowhere, despite all possible evidence to the contrary.
You're allowed "hope" too, Ben, but that's the problem with Hope: It springs eternal, when it really shouldn't.)

[Ben]

Okay...well...simply put, although the "old guard" were not directly involved in Oz and Santa, those were products of the evolved Muppet performers (Whitmire as Kermit, etc), so you can't say it was all "new blood".

Just as Glen Keane and Andreas Deja were the "new blood" of Disney Animation once, they had been taught their craft from the "old guard". The past few years of Muppets projects have very much come from the "next generation" of people who were versed in what they do by those that came before them...so that solves that "problem".

"The Muppets" film is the first time a truly new team of creative people has come in and "taken over" the direction of the characters. You can not dispute that. And this is what is meant by "new". Simple enough for ya?

I would also argue that whatever any "insider" says about a script going against every quality they created for the characters, well, yes, then maybe for where the franchise has ended up, being a watered down version of what it once was. What I'm seeing here is a return to the original original ideals.

Will Siegel turn out to be a new Jerry Juhl? No, no-one ever could. But what they're trying to do here is, like Tangled did for Rapunzel, make the Muppets relevant again as opposed to starring in tired Christmas specials where the magic had long faded.

The film could be complete cack...but until I see it I'm not going to pass judgement: what I've seen so far brings a smile to my face and a feeling I haven't had since The Muppets Take Manhattan.

And...much as I admire him and remember fondly the time I spent on set, if Frank Oz wants to shoot at the movie that's down to him. He was right there when it all started and he obviously has an opinion. But while his career as a movie director took off and the Muppets became a secondary concern for him, he didn't exactly stick around, did he? Yes, I understand that there were "battles" between him as exec producer on Christmas Carol and director Brian Henson, but if anyone should have stood up and taken creative control it should have been him, or he could have at least stuck around and continued with Fozzie and Piggy's voices, though again I could see if he'd rather forgo a pay-packet that support material he didn't think was very good.

But this is the first time any of the "old guard" (who ultimately didn't "guard" very much, did they?) have spoken out about a new Muppets project - and even then Oz pulls himself in and says he doesn't want to be a "sourpuss and hurt the movie" (maybe because he's bitter his own Muppets revamp didn't happen, or maybe because he wants to keep his options open).

Maybe you should try that too, Mr J, instead of being so patronizing, insulting and just down right plainly rude.