Batman Begins

[Stego]

I agree about not making judgements...i'm just saying that it seems to me this series has been on a steady downward spiral ever since Schumaker took the helm. As of now, i don't personally see it getting really good, but from what the trailer showed, this one looks more promising than Schwarzenegger in fuzzy blue slippers.

[Stego]

I agree about not making judgements...i'm just saying that it seems to me this series has been on a steady downward spiral ever since Schumaker took the helm. As of now, i don't personally see it getting really good, but from what the trailer showed, this one looks more promising than Schwarzenegger in fuzzy blue slippers.

As far as Scarecrow goes...i was really hoping that would be a villain Burton would be able to get his hands on. But man, can you imagine if they did a Clayface movie...and did it right?! With special f/x the way they are today, that could prove VERY interesting. I do agree with you on the choice of Murphy...after seeing 28 days later i can honestly say that guy has scary potential

Mask of the Phantasm is amazing...i would also recommend (very highly) Return of the Joker: Uncut (uncut is a bit harder to find, but well worth it). Some of the most powerful stuff i've seen in the animated version came outta that flick.

I didn't know that about the first movie..."wussman"? Wow...just wow.

I believe Burton had a small hand in Batman Forever...which is why (i think) it wasnt as bad as "Batman and Robin."

I'd take tortured scarred vigilante too...but they need to have a little bit of the playboy stuff in there...gotta have the alter ego.

[Ben]

Batman Returns is the perfect Batman movie, for all the reasons stated above.

I'm just chiming in to gets some facts straight:

Danny Elfman only "kind of composed" the theme for the original 90s' version of the WB cartoon (it was actually adapted from his film theme).

Shirley Walker, a long-time Elfman collaborator, actually wrote the score for Mask Of The Phantasm, and went on to her own composing career (as has Steve Bartek, another Elfman partner, as well). I also beileve she wrote a fair portion of the animated series, but this could have been Bartek as well.

Tim Burton WAS going to direct Batman 3, but wanted to use different villains (and from what I heard, bring one of the already used ones back and also not have Robin involved). Then he got tied up in the Catwoman movie, which obviously fell through (no connected to the Halle Berry misfire).

Burton left Bats 3 to concentrate on Cats, and was replaced with WB's then hotshot director Shumacher, a...former hairdresser ("but what I really want to do is direct!"). Slowly, it went down hill from there.

Billy Dee Williams was replaced with "bigger name" Tommy Lee Jones as Two-Face, and then Keaton - who was locked in - had "creative differences" with Shumacher, and he bailed too.

Shumacher then wanted to start from scratch, and junked Elfan's iconic score for Goldenthal's overblown music. Although he was still attached as a producer, Burton's input was minimal, only stretching as far as keeping the "look" of his previous two films intact (and, from what I heard, a "name to keep the fans happy").

Batman Forever didn't turn out too bad, but there's at least 20 minutes cut from the picture (available in some bootleg "director's cuts" doing the rounds), and that is mainly to Burton's insistence on some things. But the final cut was screwed up between Shumacher and WB, who at this point were "confident" in handing the franchise to Shumacher and disregarded Burton's late post comments.

The final film, with Kilmer (who Shumacher regretted casting, hence Clooney in number four), is a bit of a hodge-podge. As with the differences between Superman II and III (the Donner/Lester problems), one can see the style changes when Burton wasn't involved on number four (his services were not even called upon).

It's telling that Burton would not make another film with WB until very recently, when the Studio administration staff had been changed in the AOL merger fiasco.

[Josh]

Tim Burton WAS going to direct Batman 3, but wanted to use different villains (and from what I heard, bring one of the already used ones back and also not have Robin involved).

I read differently, though. From what I understand, Robin was going to be in Batman 3, but with Marlon Wayans being considered for the role. However, I don't know which one of us is correct.

Batman Forever didn't turn out too bad, but there's at least 20 minutes cut from the picture (available in some bootleg "director's cuts" doing the rounds),

Those twenty minutes would have added so much to the character of Two-Face/Harvey Dent that it would have Batman Forever a much better film. Nonetheless, I think Batman Forever did a better job with Bruce Wayne's character than any of the other films. Still, Val Kilmer probably should get props for that. He wanted BF to be a serious film, while Schumacher, according to Kilmer, wanted to make the film into a big "cartoon". Looking at Batman and Robin, I can see what Kilmer meant.

Actually, though, Batman Forever was better than Batman in a couple of ways. First of all, as stated before, it dealt with Bruce's torment more than any of the other films. Plus, BF was nominated for more Oscars. And finally, BF's "Kiss from a Rose" beats Batman's "Scandalous" any day.

And speaking of the Batman soundtrack, does anyone know why in the world Prince had such a huge part in it? I think his songs are what has aged the film more than anything else.

[ShyViolet]

"And speaking of the Batman soundtrack, does anyone know why in the world Prince had such a huge part in it? I think his songs are what has aged the film more than anything else."


I think it had a lot to do with WB wanting to pre-sell the movie as a "Blockbuster" (the way they did with the Bat symbol) so they wanted to have stuff that the right demographic back then liked...which apparently was Prince. You couldn't even get Danny Elfman's soundtrack until YEARS later and it's STILL kind of hard to find.
I hate to say this but the songs make the film feel more like an 80's movie than ever.

And yeah I LOVED Kiss from the Rose on the Grave.

[mr. squarepants]

Also, I don't know if I would say Batman Returns is the best of the Batman films. To be honest, I think it may be only slightly better than Batman Forever. However, were the director's cut of Batman Forever to come out, I feel as though BF would be the best Batman film, for then, Two-Face would finally have dimensions and not just be a one-note character. In my opinion, Schumacher's handling of Two-Face is what keeps BF from being a truly great film.

[Ben]

Actually, though, Batman Forever was better than Batman in a couple of ways. First of all, as stated before, it dealt with Bruce's torment more than any of the other films. Plus, BF was nominated for more Oscars. And finally, BF's "Kiss from a Rose" beats Batman's "Scandalous" any day.

"Actually"...

Yes, the torment factor was dealt with a little more, but not dramatically so. It still felt stale to me since it was repeating imagery from the first film.

Yes, a film that is nominated for more Oscars always automatically makes it the better film, doesn't it? The Silence Of The Lambs is so much better than Beauty And The Beast.

Your last comment is a personal opinion. I happen to agree, but you make it seem like a "fact", actually.

BTW, the whole Prince tie-in was down to good old "corporate synergy". WB had put a LOT into the film and NEEDED it to be a MASSIVE hit. Therefore a company-wide initiative to get the Bat-logo on as many items and into as many minds as possible was put into action. Given the choice of Prince or Madonna, Burton picked the purple one, but was saddled with those songs. You'll notice that, in the final mix, the Prince songs aren't a feature at all, apart from the Joker's "art" sequence.

[mr. squarepants]

I hope that Batman Begins isn't like Hulk, in that it has plenty of talent but produces lackluster results by taking itself too seriously.

[Stego]

Also, I don't know if I would say Batman Returns is the best of the Batman films. To be honest, I think it may be only slightly better than Batman Forever. However, were the director's cut of Batman Forever to come out, I feel as though BF would be the best Batman film, for then, Two-Face would finally have dimensions and not just be a one-note character. In my opinion, Schumacher's handling of Two-Face is what keeps BF from being a truly great film.

You know, i liked BF alot when it came out, but in recent viewings i have to disagree with you on this. I'm not so sure I like Jim's rendition of the Riddler... I still think he did a great performance for Jim, but i don't think he was as true to the character as he could have been. As big as a fan of Jim as i am (and i'm a fairly big fan) i think he was being too...wacky. (the same goes for moments of 'The Grinch'...but that's another story) The only mainstream villains (in my opinion) who should be wacky in that rogue's gallery are Harley and Joker, and the Creeper. (am i forgetting someone?)

Again, i look back to the animated series and appreciate that rendition much more...even if Carrey had acted like the Clock King, i would have been satisfied. And that 20 minutes must be incredible because Jones' was acting pretty goofy the whole film too.

As far as Prince goes...if i remember correctly, i once read an article where Danny said something about wanting to appeal to the masses...just like Violet said.

Ben: awesome recount of the facts...Shirley went on to do films like the"Final Destination"s and "Willard" (the latter of which was awesome).

I'm not sure if Bartek worked that much on the animated series...to my knowledge it was mostly Shirley. According to imdb, there were a slew of others who provided "additional music."

Ben: for that Catwoman movie...were they planning on keeping Michelle?

[Josh]

No need for sarcasm, Ben.

And while we are on the subject of "actually," another Prince song, "Trust", was used in the Gotham parade scene.

[mr. squarepants]

And that 20 minutes must be incredible because Jones' was acting pretty goofy the whole film too.

The twenty minutes dealt with Harvey Dent more. It showed his relationship with Bruce Wayne, thus better explaining why Bruce didn't want Dick to kill Harvey.

There were several other scenes which were cut as well, though. Here's some more info:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112462/alternateversions

[Stego]

Also, I don't know if I would say Batman Returns is the best of the Batman films. To be honest, I think it may be only slightly better than Batman Forever.

Not to be a tool, but...wouldn't that still make it ultimately the best?


...and i agree, that the handling of Two-Face is the biggest of the problems...but it certainly isn't the only one.

[mr. squarepants]

For crying out loud, folks, I just said that Batman Returns may be slightly better than Batman Forever, in order to give it the benefit of doubt. What is this? "Pick on Anyone Who Likes Batman Forever Day"?

To be quite honest, Batman Returns isn't without its plotholes. Why can't I like my Batman film, and you guys like yours, without jumping all over the folks who like Batman Forever?

Here, if you are looking to make fun of someone, click on #6 in this list:
http://www.dogpile.com/info.dogpl/searc ... 2Ba%2Brose

...and if you are looking for some amateur work that is rather impressive, check out #12 on the list.

[Ben]

Ben: awesome recount of the facts...Shirley went on to do films like the"Final Destination"s and "Willard" (the latter of which was awesome).

I'm not sure if Bartek worked that much on the animated series...

Ben: for that Catwoman movie...were they planning on keeping Michelle?

Thanks! I dooos my bestest.

I love Shirley's post Elfman work - just had Memoirs Of An Invisible Man (an underrated movie in its own right, I feel) on the TV here and she'd done the score for that (I also have it on the hard to find CD).

Wasn't sure about Bartek on the animated series. I know he continued Danny's work on the Darkman series though.

Catwoman: Denise DeNovi has been with this since Bats Returns. It was always going to be Michelle when Burton was directing. He passed on Bats 3 to concentrate on the Catwoman film, but they couldn't ever work out if she was a heroine or an anti-hero. Story probs here and there. Burton fell out with WB, left the project and so did Michelle. I'm sure you know Ashley Judd was the preferred "plan B" for a good long while. Heck knows how it turned into the Berry mess it was... I mean, "face cream" is the villain's weapon??????????

[mr. squarepants]

Wasn't Nicole Kidman also rumored for the role?