Batman Begins

[AniMan]

Oh, my dear young beautiful Violet.. so much still to learn still

I understand what you're trying to say. But you're missing what those of us who say it's "realistic" mean. Nolan created a Batman world that is, at least, somewhat plausible, thereby adding some emotional weight to Batman. It's grounded in reality in that, things can actually be explained and justified.

Batman IS a dark story, but it's NOT supposed to be "realistic." The whole point of the story is that it's mythic, larger-than-life. The "Bat" is a symbol, a metaphor. That's why it's a comic book. Making it real just doesn't....fit.

Well, you're not entirely right or wrong here. Batman is sort of a mythic character, an icon or symbol. But with Batman, unlike the other superheros, there has always been an element of realism. The mere fact that he has no super-powers, he has to create all his crime fighting gadgets, he's really a billionaire, he fights enemies that are criminally insane; all of this is part of that realism I'm talking about. And you say "making it real just doesn't fit"? If you think that, I suggest you read Batman:Year One, Batman: The Killing Joke, or Batman: The Long Halloween, just to name a few. All of those are very realistic as far a the superhero genre goes. And it fits very, very well.

I've read that Nolan might be directing one or even two sequels to this film, and that they might include characters like the Joker and Two-Face. But....how is that possible?? I mean, how can you possibly make a character like the Joker "realistic"? Or Two-Face? (In the "real" world, wouldn't he just have plastic surgury?) The whole point of Joker and Two-Face is that they are both screwed-up-beyond-redemption psychologically and that their twisted features reflect that. Sort of like the Dick Tracy villains, or Spider-Man. Batman may be a "darker" comic book, but it's still a comic book. No one in their right mind would suggest making Spider-Man completely realistic--why is Batman any different?

How can you make the Joker realistic?? Or Two-Face?? Vi, it's so easy that I'm perplexed that you can't see how. I think you're being too literal when you say "realistic". Making something at least plausible by definition makes it more "realistic". The Joker is criminally insane. He's a psychotic murderer who finds what he does amusing. That is plausible, therefore it has some realism to it. The whole clown make-up: well, like I said, he's insane. Two-Face is severely disfigured and it affects him psychologically. There's you're realism right there. Plastic-surgery? Well, I imagine you're right there, but, again, it's about grounding it in reality, not about it being totally realistic. Elements of the real world, so that we can at least identify with it.
And while you're right, no one would suggest making Spider-man completely realistic, but you know what they did? They made the world in which Peter Parker inhabited VERY realistic. Peter has trouble in school, in love, at work, with money, oh and he has to save NYC (which is a real city, I recall ); all of this is the "realistic" stuff that makes the fantasy come alive. This is what they did with Batman Begins. He still does amazing feats that we know no person probably can ever do, but it sure does look believable when we see up there on screen, doesn't it? That's the whole point. That we BELIEVE it.

[AniMan]

I think the leads - and Nolan - are all under contract for three.

Batman: Joker Begins is apparently gearing up to start filming later this year for a 2007 release.


BTW, I'm just joshin' on that title

Wow! They're going to start filming this year? That' great! Needless to say I'm looking forward to the sequel!

What do you think the possibilities of the next title will be? How about Batman: The Joker's Wild? Wait a minute.. I think that title has already been taken

[Josh]

Or Two-Face? (In the "real" world, wouldn't he just have plastic surgury?)

No, plastic surgery would not help have helped Two-Face much. I recently saw on television, a man whose wife had thrown acid in his face. As a result, the man's ear was partly burned off, the side of his face was somewhat similar to Two-Face's in Batman Forever, and his eye had been blinded, allowing mostly the white of it to only be shown. His wound was beyond full repair.

Besides, keep in mind that in Batman: The Animated Series, Two-Face did have plastic surgery. Apparently, it only made his scar blue.

...(is that a word, campiness?).

Well, technically, it's not a real word. However, it's one of those words that people still seem to use (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=n ... =campiness). Who knows, it may actually become a real word someday. I hope so.

I think the leads - and Nolan - are all under contract for three.

Yep, Christian Bale, Michael Caine and Morgan Freeman will all be back for the sequel- but Katie Holmes will not, if Pagesix.Com (http://www.imdb.com/news/wenn/2005-06-21/#2) is correct.

[ShyViolet]

Oh, my dear young beautiful Violet.. so much still to learn still

Aw, you're so sweet Animan.

Well, you're not entirely right or wrong here. Batman is sort of a mythic character, an icon or symbol. But with Batman, unlike the other superheros, there has always been an element of realism. The mere fact that he has no super-powers, he has to create all his crime fighting gadgets, he's really a billionaire, he fights enemies that are criminally insane; all of this is part of that realism I'm talking about. And you say "making it real just doesn't fit"? If you think that, I suggest you read Batman:Year One, Batman: The Killing Joke, or Batman: The Long Halloween, just to name a few. All of those are very realistic as far a the superhero genre goes. And it fits very, very well.

That's what I've always liked about Batman, and I'm hoping to collect more comics like the ones you mentioned. I always loved that Bruce had this double identity Millionaire-Playboy/Vigilante thing going. It makes him very interesting (Kind of like Indiana Jones, who is part university professor/part adventurer).

But....yeah it's true he has no super-powers, but he still IS a superhero. I haven't seen BB yet (yeah, I know, so what right do I have to criticize?) but it kinda seems like in Nolan's mind the only difference between James and Bond and Batman is the cape. (What would Edna Mode say??) James Bond fights crime and doesn't have any super-powers, so should we consider him a superhero too? What about Shaft? Or Bruce Willis in Die Hard? They're all famous movie characters that have iconic value....so what separates them from Batman, exactly? Should Batman's world be as "real" as Charles Bronson's?

Also, not to bring up any bad memories or anything, but if you remember "DareDevil", that movie may not have been Spidey 2, but it retained the whole "grand" comic-book feel in the costumes and sets. There was some dumb stuff, but it was enjoyable because you knew you were in a different universe. The previews for BB don't make me feel like I'm in a comic-book world at all, but in a martial-arts action movie type thing (nothing wrong with those films but they're different from comic book films). I don't know how big a role Cillian Murphy has in this movie as the Scarecrow, but that's what really interests me in this movie--the screwed-up villain. All that stuff about Bruce in the prison camp doesn't really grab me--I don't know why. It's just too...realistic!! It's kind of like how in X-Men they don't even have the individual costumes. I don't mind that, but a lot of people feel that it take away from the comic-book feel and I can see their point. It's like that with the whole Batman thing. If you're going to make it so "real", then, why bother with that costume at all? I mean, maybe it obscures his identity but realistically it should be REALLY hard for him to fight with that on! Also, the Batmobile: they made it look like that because realistically it would make it run faster and protect Batman better, but who wants a Batmobile that looks like THAT?

How can you make the Joker realistic?? Or Two-Face?? Vi, it's so easy that I'm perplexed that you can't see how. I think you're being too literal when you say "realistic". Making something at least plausible by definition makes it more "realistic". The Joker is criminally insane. He's a psychotic murderer who finds what he does amusing. That is plausible, therefore it has some realism to it. The whole clown make-up: well, like I said, he's insane. Two-Face is severely disfigured and it affects him psychologically. There's you're realism right there. Plastic-surgery? Well, I imagine you're right there, but, again, it's about grounding it in reality, not about it being totally realistic. Elements of the real world, so that we can at least identify with it.

I totally understand what you're saying, that's what makes Batman awesome. I always thought it had that great psychological complexity (especially with that animated series, that vantriliquist guy....whoa!) But...there has to be SOME element of fantasy in a movie like this. Well, maybe this is just because I haven't seen Nolan's film yet, but it's very hard for me to picture how he'd do the Joker. Very hard. Unless he has a totally different take on Jack Napier than Burton or the animated series. It would be hard to pull of a "complex" "realistic" comic-book villain in a restrained a film as Nolan's without totally alienating your core audience, but stranger things have happened. I'm willing to keep an open mind. And yeah, I know, there have been some very serious things with the Joker in the comic (all the people he kills) so I suppose Nolan could do it--except....there is that little matter of the MPAA rating system. If Nolan made a deadly-serious film with the Joker as a homicidal maniac/clown figure who murders for fun...well, you're pushing into an R-rating there. Yes, yes, I realize Tim Burton did the same thing, but there was a bit of fantasy/humor to offset the distrubing material. (which was pretty intense by itself if you think about it, what with the smylex gas, electrocution, being burned alive by acid, boy witnessing his parents' murder, etc...) If Nolan did make a film like this, trust me, I'll be first in line to see it. But he'd be taking a lot of risks--Batman Returns had a lot of realistic violence and even WITH the fantasy stuff it was attacked for being unsuitable for children. And what kid isn't going to want to see the next Batman film? Hey, look what happened to Return of the Joker, an ANIMATED film which was released direct to video for crying out loud. They had to cut out a lot of stuff from that film because of the seriousness of the Joker's crimes. Well, to some up my point, all I'm saying is that you have to be careful with something like this--your audience comes in all ages and all types. B:TAS had the great distinction including all the dark, disturbing stuff but not TOO much of it. It had to be FUN as well, after all. It was perfectly understandable that the Joker was a homicidal maniac, but they didn't need to show him beating Robin to death to get that across. (I mean in the cartoon.)

And while you're right, no one would suggest making Spider-man completely realistic, but you know what they did? They made the world in which Peter Parker inhabited VERY realistic. Peter has trouble in school, in love, at work, with money, oh and he has to save NYC (which is a real city, I recall ); all of this is the "realistic" stuff that makes the fantasy come alive.

Yeah, I totally agree, except there was that mythic element to the film that I don't see happening in BB. Spidey 2 also has plenty of humor as well as chills and thrills, and Dock Ock is wonderful comic book villain. Yeah, we know about his "issues", but there has to be a balance in tone. Spidey is about "the hero in all of us" and even though it gets down and dirty with Peter Parker's conflicts and fears, it never loses that element of fantasy. And yeah, it's true, Spidey isn't Batman, but they're both comic books. Not to repeat myself, but what made Burton's film so successful was that large-than-life feeling--why else do you think the film was such a big "event" that people stood for around the block?

This review from NY magazine kind of goes into this:

http://www.newyorkmetro.com/movies/list ... _44694.htm


I agree that Schumacker went too camp, but it IS possible, as Ben said, to go in the other direction, too.

(BTW I personally think Christian Slater would be the perfect Joker, he's got that darkness to him, and everyone says he looks exactly like Jack Nicholson only younger.)

No, plastic surgery would not help have helped Two-Face much. I recently saw on television, a man whose wife had thrown acid in his face. As a result, the man's ear was partly burned off, the side of his face was somewhat similar to Two-Face's in Batman Forever, and his eye had been blinded, allowing mostly the white of it to only be shown. His wound was beyond full repair.

I thought about that, but I was just saying that about surgury to make a point....well, realistically, the Joker, Two-Face, Penguin and all the others are completely psychotic anyway and if someone was really as far gone as say, the Joker is, they would probably not be able to function very well in the "real" world, let alone conceive diabolical super-villain plans. It's all a matter of perspective.

[AniMan]

Whaaaaaaaat? You haven't seen Batman Begins yet??
Oh, Violet, you've gotta do me a favor --- no, do yourself a favor: GO SEE THIS MOVIE. From what you describe as your likes and dislikes about the Batman movies and the character himself, I am almost certain you will thoroughly enjoy this movie. I am confident that you will be impressed by what Nolan did here. I was a little skeptical about some things going into this; I HATED what they had created to be the batmobile... until I saw it in action in the film. I'm a convert now. That car is incredible. But you have to see it in the context of the movie to appreciate it, trust me. And that fantasy element you talk about is still there. In fact, Batman seems much more larger-than-life here than in any of the previous films because you actually see the journey that brings him to that point. When you first see him in the bat suit you want to jump out of your seat and cheer. And he's nothing like Bond here, not even remotely. Bond does what he does because he is paid to; it's his job. Batman does it because his need for justice compels him to. So please, please, puh-leeeeeez, go see this movie. I strongly believe you will be pleasantly surprised!

[Christian]

I haven't seen it yet. But I have noticed that no Batman film will ever please every one. Somebody will always say it's not true enough to how Batman should be portrayed or that it's too realistic and not fantastical enough or too fantastical and not realistic enough.

[James]

Best. Batman movie. Ever.

And I loved Burton's first.

[Macaluso]

It looks good. But nothin' that's getting me excited enough to go see it unless a friend wants me to go with them.

[AniMan]

It looks good. But nothin' that's getting me excited enough to go see it unless a friend wants me to go with them.

You've got no reason to trust me, but.. trust me. Don't judge it or go by these ads you see on tv. Go see it, I doubt you'd be disappointed. You seem to be pretty easy to please (no, that's not a wisecrack at all; it's actually a compliment ) and there is a lot in this movie that pleases. Trust me... this one needs to be seen on the big screen. Go see it for yourself.

[AniMan]

Best. Batman movie. Ever.

And I loved Burton's first.

Finally. Someone who feels exactly as I do. You, sir, are a wise man! And I, too, enjoyed Burton's first Batman (and still like it), but in comparison to Batman Begins? No contest. Best -- Batman movie -- ever.

[ShyViolet]

Well, I respect your opinion Animan. (Also James) I'll definetely give it a try!

Actually, I would have gone before now except for financial reasons (I also don't have a lot of access to transportation right now. )


I loved Memento and Insomnia, so I'm actually pretty excited about BB. I think Nolan might do some really cool stuff with the villains.

[Ben]

Sorry to say that he doesn't.

One - the best - is used barely, the other one/two doesn't stick around very long and then the end is just fighting. Badly cut, can't see what's going on fighting.

I spoke to the Stunt Coordinator today, and most of the stunt guys are very disappointed with it too, given what they they put into it.

[ShyViolet]

Just how DID Padme become pregnant if Anakin had been off in the Wars for so long? What the heck inspires her to name the kids as they pop out (and so quickly too - just get it over with George L)?

Hmmmm....two theories:


1.)Luke and Leia were conceived in that same immaculate conception way that Anakin was, from the midochlorians.


2.) Maybe that line: "Luke, I am your father," needs closer scrutiny...

And yeah, that's no Batmobile... That looks like something Arnold Schwarzenegger would drive around in to a special meeting of the California Senate! Worst Tractormobile, er Bat---.... I can't even say it. That thing looks awful!

LOL! Or maybe that truck he drove in Terminator when he came "back."

[Josh]

What the heck inspires her to name the kids as they pop out (and so quickly too - just get it over with George L?

Anakin and she could have already chosen the names. Hence, when asked what they were, she was ready to answer.

[Christian]

Just got back from seeing it. Loved it. Loved it. LOVED . . . IT. Observations and minor complaints may be mentioned later. As with Ep. III (and SW in general) my minor complaints were not nearly enough to kill my overall enjoyment of the movie.