Disney's Raya And The Last Dragon

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Re: Disney's Raya And The Last Dragon

Post by drewestin » November 4th, 2021, 7:01 pm

Neither I nor my youngest daughter have watched this movie yet. Although as far as I understand the plot mainly revolves around a dragon and a warrior girl? My daughter is just an incredibly big fan of huge and very scary dragons. Of course, I don't know why she likes dragons, but according to her, they are incredibly fantastic creatures with the ability to fly and breathe flames, what could be cooler? Of course, as a responsible parent, I could not help but buy my child pajamas and a plush dragon from a similar service https://dragon-vibe.com/. I'm a little off topic, in general, I hope this cartoon is cool.

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Re: Disney's Raya And The Last Dragon

Post by Randall » November 14th, 2021, 10:39 am

Having now watched Raya on Blu-ray, I have to say that I don't understand some of the negative sentiment voiced here about the film. It was gorgeous, had a grand story, and the contemporary speech was no worse than countless other Disney films. (Awkwafina was far less annoying than Rosie in Tarzan.) To me, Aladdin is the very worst example of using contemporary speech and hipster tone, and everyone loved it there, probably because they first saw it when they were young. Giving it a "pass" now because it was supposedly a comedy doesn't wash with me. Most Disney films work as both adventures and comedies.

And I really have to question the psyche of anyone that STILL has a problem with "empowered, determined female characters." What, do we need more "weak, disempowered" female characters? Give me a break.

While I wouldn't place Raya among the great classics, it was solid and entertaining. They can't all be classics, after all, but Raya is far from bad or disappointing to me. I found it about on par with Moana, probably, though Raya was more epic. Sure it could have been MORE epic, but we had less than two hours to play with; it was never going to be Lord of the Rings.

It seems that expectations are everything, oftentimes. Go in expecting Moana, and you're doing fine.

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Re: Disney's Raya And The Last Dragon

Post by Ben » November 14th, 2021, 12:14 pm

Since it seems you probably didn’t read my take back at the time…
Ben wrote:
March 23rd, 2021, 6:51 am
What a bonkers but almost brilliant movie! :D

No spoilers!

I think this is the first time Disney has applied such modern moviemaking techniques — the (slightly) techno scoring, split-screen editing, the random, flippant humor — to a classically set, "traditional" story, and the result is far from a jarring effect and actually really works well, bringing a complete freshness to what looked like, and could so easily have been, a Moana clone.

Indeed, plot and tone wise, it did play like a mix of Pocahontas, Mulan, Frozen and Moana, as well as some Star Wars old and new, but takes the best parts of those to come up with something that feels fresh, even if it isn’t really, since the story is kind of the same old thing that we've seen before many times over. But that’s where the modern approach makes it work and feel new enough.

And what timing the movie's release has! Who at Disney knew four years ago that we would be in the midst of a global pandemic, with nations all over the globe split down the middle politically and socially!? Raya And The Last Dragon speaks to all that as if the film was basically created in the last six months! (Apparently, a lot of it was, at least in final animation and voice recording, which does its best to hide the "microphone in a cupboard" sound quality that occasionally slips through.)

It’s incredible to easily read into it the obvious virus-like Druun, "spreading so fast" and sucking the life out of those it touches, and the vaccination-like force of the dragons, while the five parts of Raya's homeland ending to the learn the lesson of unification all makes the film a weirdly prescient (in its making) and timely (in its release) movie that hits many points home.

Now...it’s not all perfect. The animation is very odd, not because it isn’t very good, because it largely is, especially in the designs. But the characters often have the uncanny valley about them — which is *really* weird to say about a CG cartoon to begin with! — and as good as *some* of the character animation is, there are also *real* clunkers n there that aren’t much better than DTV or TV fare. The Clone Wars came to mind a few times in looking at Raya's father especially, and just what was going on with young Raya's over-animating in the opening moments!?

It's all very strange. And as much as the coloring and designs are mostly beautiful to look at, the texturing can also often let them down by being overly "simplistic" and lower-budgety: my previous comment about this looking like a step back to around the time of Meet The Robinsons (also a Don Hall film, interestingly) and Bolt still stand. But then there are moments where everything looks amazing: the villages Raya's gang visit (complete with multitudes of people, no skimping here!) and the many flashback/backstory/world-building sequences, full of gorgeous, tradigital-looking shots, designs and moments.

A lack of songs wasn’t really missed, since the plentiful action takes their place, and I also liked how character fates were played out, both in being pretty plain up front about who people were and not dragging out the predicable "surprise" twists. Although I didn’t see that end coming and loved the choice, actually thinking in hindsight it could have been played out even a little longer while a certain decision had to be made...

In looking back on James' front page review, it looks like we saw completely different films. Yeah, the modern dialogue did seem out of place at first, but we’ve been slowly weaned onto this by the likes of Rapunzel and Frozen, and I just found it fresh and, dare I say, invigorating. And the one word that kept coming back to me really was "epic"!

But, in all, I really, really, really liked this movie! Can’t wait to add it to the shelf around Junetime, and hopefully make it our family's Christmas treat movie at the end of the year...if the Druun doesn’t come back again...! :shock: :D
I’m still looking forward to running this as our family Christmas movie this year, although of course we'll also have Encanto dropping the same time. Might have to be a double bill! :)

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Re: Disney's Raya And The Last Dragon

Post by EricJ » November 14th, 2021, 12:33 pm

Randall wrote:
November 14th, 2021, 10:39 am
Having now watched Raya on Blu-ray, I have to say that I don't understand some of the negative sentiment voiced here about the film. It was gorgeous, had a grand story, and the contemporary speech was no worse than countless other Disney films. (Awkwafina was far less annoying than Rosie in Tarzan.) To me, Aladdin is the very worst example of using contemporary speech and hipster tone, and everyone loved it there, probably because they first saw it when they were young. Giving it a "pass" now because it was supposedly a comedy doesn't wash with me. Most Disney films work as both adventures and comedies.
Williams’ Genie, like Ed Wynn’s Mad Hatter, was one of the gold examples of the rare times Disney can PERFECTLY stunt-cast a story without breaking the world of the original source:
Yes, like Merlin cutting up in Sword in the Stone, we can do without Robin’s Jack Nicholson and Arsenio Hall jokes in old Agrabah, but when he’s IN character, he stays enough in character to create the appeal of why readers like the story of a boy and his genie.
(More accurately, a good version of how Disney can improve an old tale by streamlining it, and combined both the tale’s bombastic lamp genie with the poor, forgotten ring genie that becomes Aladdin’s friend-like-me in the climax.)

Raya, OTOH, has no story to pay tribute to —Like Moana and Mirabella, she was concocted in a boardroom that wanted to provide little girls with an empowered assembly line of Role Models to dress up as at the parks, and they forgot that one little element that made us all “Aww..😢 “ when Aladdin gives his best big-buddy a hug after freeing him.
Walt used to throw a fit if a story didn’t have “heart”, and lately, I’m not above a few myself.

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Re: Disney's Raya And The Last Dragon

Post by Randall » November 14th, 2021, 1:22 pm

Ben wrote:
November 14th, 2021, 12:14 pm
Since it seems you probably didn’t read my take back at the time…
I did, and I re-read it before making my post; but I wasn't aiming my remarks your way. :)

As for Eric's remark on "heart", Raya had plenty enough of that for me. Witness the closing moments when trust had to be offered and tested, and numerous other moments for Raya/father, Raya/dragon, etc. I sometimes think that older fans can mix up a perceived lack of heart in modern films with their own loss of innocence. We do tend to look at pictures of the past with fond nostalgia that we do not offer to new films.

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Re: Disney's Raya And The Last Dragon

Post by Ben » November 14th, 2021, 1:41 pm

Rand: oh, no, I only reposted since we seem to have come away with similar reactions. :)

Eric: Aladdin "broke the world of the original source" long before they even cast Robin Williams! ;)

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Re: Disney's Raya And The Last Dragon

Post by EricJ » November 14th, 2021, 1:44 pm

Honest Trailers made fun of the fact that almost EVERY single character in the story, besides Lone, Independent Raya Who Doesn't Need Princes (or shrimp-selling surrogate bratty-little-brothers who don't turn into bears) and Does Everything Herself, turns out to be duplicitous and backstab her at some plot point by the climax.

And that this teaches young girls "Don't trust anybody, they're only out to underestimate you, and get you in the end! That's how girls become independent!"
Which, in a tween-girl-skewed Disney film, is, er, how shall I put this, about as Captain Marvel as you can get. You don't have to teach them that at that age, they KNOW already...The trick in growing up is to teach them something else.

(Well, "everyone", except for her glam, contemporary wisecracking personal BDF (Beta-Dragon Forever) who doesn't mind making a free-spirited fool of herself as long as the heroine can hang out with her and still look cool, empowered and humorless.)

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Re: Disney's Raya And The Last Dragon

Post by Farerb » November 14th, 2021, 2:38 pm

I don't mind anachronism in Disney films, I have an issue when they expect me to take the world as serious as Raya and the Last Dragon did and then break it by saying stuff like fan or nerd. Wouldn't dragons be something more spiritual for them than treating them like they're some MCU characters?
Also in my opinion, Aladdin was better written and Robin Williams isn't as obnoxious as Awkwafina.

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Re: Disney's Raya And The Last Dragon

Post by James » November 14th, 2021, 2:39 pm

Randall wrote:
November 14th, 2021, 10:39 am
...And I really have to question the psyche of anyone that STILL has a problem with "empowered, determined female characters." What, do we need more "weak, disempowered" female characters? Give me a break...
I think this is a bit of a straw man. Hardly anyone has problems with actual "empowered, determined female characters". The problem is when instead of them SHOWING us empowered, determined female characters, they instead have the character just SAYING it over and over. Then when just about every movie with a female lead continues to say instead of show, it becomes a bit of a cliche and a joke.

For example, Black Widow and Scarlet Witch in the MCU are empowered, determined female characters. How do we know this? Because of their actions on screen. They never have to stop to make sure the audience knows it.

I actually wrote about my thoughts on this back in my Moana review:
Disney seems to have a love/hate relationship with their princesses. For just about every one of them since Belle in 1991, the writers have gone out of their way to overcompensate for what they consider the mistakes of the past by ensuring they are all strong, independent women who don’t need a man. Nothing wrong with that in principle. Bravo! The problem is when they make the appeal explicit instead of letting it come across naturally. Belle: we’re repeatedly told how odd she is for being smart. Jasmine and Merida: how many times are we reminded they don’t want to get married? Tiana has no time for fun, she has work to do, and she won’t stop telling us about us. On the flip side, Pocahontas and Rapunzel were exactly the type of role models Disney wants — smart, resourceful, and brave. Anna and Elsa (playing with expectations until the very end) proved familial love is just as strong as any other. And no one had to explicitly tell us any of this. They showed it through their actions. It’s almost like the writers don’t trust their audience to get it, or are afraid of being called sexist for not being overt enough with their messaging. Moana is a great princess and role model for little girls, completely different from the older, more vapid princesses of the past. Trust the viewers to notice that without beating us over the head with it.
So when you hear "sexists" complaining about strong female characters, make sure to actually listen to see if they are really being bigoted, or just complaining about lazy and cliched writing.

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Re: Disney's Raya And The Last Dragon

Post by James » November 14th, 2021, 2:59 pm

Randall wrote:
November 14th, 2021, 10:39 am
the contemporary speech was no worse than countless other Disney films. (Awkwafina was far less annoying than Rosie in Tarzan.) To me, Aladdin is the very worst example of using contemporary speech and hipster tone, and everyone loved it there, probably because they first saw it when they were young. Giving it a "pass" now because it was supposedly a comedy doesn't wash with me. Most Disney films work as both adventures and comedies.
I think Aladdin gets a pass because it was an all-knowing genie doing it, someone outside the culture being represented. If it had been Aladdin or Jasmine talking like that people would not have been as accepting!

Besides just being ridiculously cringy, one of my biggest problems was that the characters and dialogue didn't mesh well with the world and story that had been created. We had, as you say, an "epic" story and "gorgeous" imagery. Then both are filled with characters straight out of Tik Tok. There was a dissonance there that did not work. Maybe if the animation had been a bit more "cartoony" for lack of a better world, people could have accepted the hipster-y dialogue more. But as it was, it just felt like an uncomfortable fit.

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Re: Disney's Raya And The Last Dragon

Post by EricJ » November 14th, 2021, 3:11 pm

James wrote:
November 14th, 2021, 2:39 pm
I think this is a bit of a straw man. Hardly anyone has problems with actual "empowered, determined female characters". The problem is when instead of them SHOWING us empowered, determined female characters, they instead have the character just SAYING it over and over. Then when just about every movie with a female lead continues to say instead of show, it becomes a bit of a cliche and a joke.
And if we're going there...Jasmine was a BAD@$$.
She could out pole-vault Aladdin, she could see through Prince Ali's disguise, she could play along with Aladdin's street-rat merchant-ducking strategies on only the slightest prompt, held her own against her father's arranged suitors, and, like the character in the tale, could almost outwit Jafar.
She was Aladdin's ideal partner-in-crime, but she was also a crazy young kid in love, without being a snotty, self-rewarding misandric-grudge prig like Merida, and we literally forget that she's supposed to be considered, gasp, "spoiled" for wanting a magic-carpet ride.

I'm not going to harp on the old bit about why John Musker & Ron Clements brought the best guy's-sensibilities to Disney films, but sometimes we dream about other things besides self-indulgence and narcissistic paranoia.

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Re: Disney's Raya And The Last Dragon

Post by Randall » November 14th, 2021, 5:28 pm

I still don't see how this applies to Raya, as I don't recall her naming her traits. But she did actually travel to many lands, performed many brave deeds, formed a united team, and saved her world.

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Re: Disney's Raya And The Last Dragon

Post by James » November 14th, 2021, 10:27 pm

Randall wrote:
November 14th, 2021, 5:28 pm
I still don't see how this applies to Raya, as I don't recall her naming her traits. But she did actually travel to many lands, performed many brave deeds, formed a united team, and saved her world.
Sorry! You brought up people with problems with "empowered, determined female characters" in your Raya post, so I assumed you were talking about Raya.

As for the "performed many brave deeds, formed a united team", etc part... I actually had a problem with that! I hinted at it in my review to avoid spoilers:
"the characters had a little too easy of a time getting through it. I’ve spoiled enough already, but when watching the film note the stops the hero makes on her way to the end and consider what she had to do at each to accomplish her goal. If you boil them down to their essence, she really didn’t do much at all at each step, making the journey feel a bit anticlimactic"
I haven't seen the movie since March, but from what I can remember, Raya basically lucks into everything she is looking for, has someone else do it, or just talks to people. It's all wrapped around some filler to make it seem like more happens, but she really doesn't actually do a lot once she finds the dragon.

But again, as I said in the review, even though I thought there was a lot wrong, there was some really good stuff here as well.

That said, I think 94% on Rotten Tomatoes is a laughably high score.

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Re: Disney's Raya And The Last Dragon

Post by Randall » November 14th, 2021, 11:16 pm

Yes, I was referring to Raya. Weren't you? You suggested above that such characters tell us about themselves, rather than show it, but I didn't think that about Raya at all.

Why is 94% "laughably high"? We know it's not a grade. You don't think that 94% of critics should like it enough to give it even a slightly positive review? I'm surprised that anyone wouldn't like it!

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Re: Disney's Raya And The Last Dragon

Post by Farerb » November 14th, 2021, 11:59 pm

Raya's score is 7.7 which is still ridiculously high. Critics in the 90's were much less forgiving, but I guess that's because nowadays we have Youtubers registered on RT as critics.

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