New Disney Streaming Service: Disney+

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Re: New Disney Streaming Service: Disney+

Post by Farerb » November 8th, 2021, 11:45 pm

If a film was composed for IMAX, its OAR is (for some scenes) 1.43 and usually the scope version is a compromise and it has the sides being opened or the top and bottom cropped. The people who worked on Dune talk about this:
Also one thing about the formats for the movie, because it was interesting in that we were very focused about all the framing when we were shooting, and we framed it for IMAX when it was an IMAX shot, and, ‘Yeah, it’s going to be IMAX, we don’t need to worry about 2.39:1.’ Of course, when you get to the edit and the post and you’re showing the studio, 2.39:1 becomes very important. So there are 29 shots in the movie where we had to create something called a mega frame. We had the IMAX frame but you couldn’t get an animated 2.39:1 cut out of that IMAX frame. It just didn’t work. So what we did was we extended the sides out on the IMAX frame and then shrunk it down to 2.39:1. So we call those the mega frames. And a lot of them were the CG ones as well as a few plate based shots, so I do encourage people to go see the IMAX version as well as the 2.39:1 version because they are slightly different. There are framing changes.

And there’s one shot, and Tristan can probably correct me if there are other ones, but there is one shot in particular which was completely reframed for 2.39:1 and IMAX, because you just can’t fit it. It’s where Paul is at the bottom of the frame, and the worm comes up and you get to see the worm’s mouth appearing at the top of the frame, and it just doesn’t fit. You can’t get a 2.39:1 version of that, and you can’t expand it out, because Denis wanted the entire frame covered with the worm. So there were two distinct versions of that shot, but then 29 other ones where we had to extend either side.
https://beforesandafters.com/2021/11/06 ... uescreens/

Usually when the film is filmed for IMAX then it's filmed with 1.43 in mind, so these versions will show you almost everything that was shown on IMAX screens and probably what the directors actually intended for you to see.

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Re: New Disney Streaming Service: Disney+

Post by Ben » November 9th, 2021, 3:46 am

Actually, for Imax, everything usually goes back to the old open matte techniques that have been in effect since TV came along in the 1950s.

So you’d take an Academy 1.37 frame (which was closest to TV's 1.33) but frame for a theatrical 1.85 within that frame, essentially creating "dead space" top and bottom, but then not having to crop anything off the sides when transferring to TV.

Practically ALL 1.85 "flat" films were composed and shot this way well into the 1980s if not even the 1990s.

Remember when people used to say they caught a boom in top of a shot? Or that bike gag in Pee Wee's Big Adventure when he chains his bike and it’s clear the chain is just being pulled up from under the bike? This is because the top of the frame was never meant to be seen, thus cropping out a stray boom, and the bottom of the frame was never meant to be seen, thus cropping out the bottom of Pee Wee's bike and *then* making it look like he had a never ending chain in his little bike storage box.

For true widescreen films, from CinemaScope into Panavision, and 70mm negative ratios, there was no getting around it: these films were fixed width frames, and so had to be "pan and scanned" to fit 1.33 screens, cropping off half for 4:3 sets and then, much later, around a third for 16:9.

With 1.43 Imax (not far off original Academy 1.37, remember), when you sit in an Imax room, your attention is actually still drawn to the "golden rectangle", or "golden ratio", in the centre of the screen, with the top and bottom of the frame still being "dead space". It has the effect of a much bigger image, and obviously of more actual "picture", but sitting that close to a screen that big, one can’t actually take that all in, so your brain still focuses on the centre of the frame, with top and bottom just "there" to fill the vision but not actually giving you any extra, or important, image information, just as the open mattes did on television.

Usually…the way to frame Imax knowing that a 2.39 widescreen DI is also needed, is to frame for the 2.39, or at least allowing for it, and letting the top and bottom just "be there". Then, just as in The Dark Knight films, or Tron Legacy, the 2.39 just crops off that dead space for a widescreen frame in theatres and on TV.

On newer discs, some of these titles open up those mattes again for those sequences, but notice that they still don’t give you anything extra than screen space, and it’s all just "image air", that can still be cropped off and, honestly, was allowed for but never intendedly framed for. It’s always about protecting the 2.39 frame, if that is the ultimately intended ratio. Unfortunately for Dune, they just framed for Imax and then didn’t have the picture information for the sides of 2.39, which is — dare I say it — actually kind of dumb!

So they’ve ended up spending a lot of time and VFX budget on expanding shots. Okay, so they say they’re largely CG shots anyway, so not so much of a big deal, but then one could argue that the Imax is, if fact, going back to cropping those edges off to fit the Imax frame. Thus this has led to two versions, instead of a consistent image that can be adjusted to each presentation display.

Trust me on this! I was Thames Television's widescreen guru when 16:9 broadcasting came in here in the UK in the late 90s and early 2000s, and gave many talks on framing, ratios and how to adapt older 4:3 images to 16:9, since you wouldn’t believe how many people — and technical people at this — didn’t get that you couldn’t and shouldn’t just stretch a frame, or just crop off top and bottom if it wasn’t open matte. It was after seeing so many "fat" people and people with their heads cut off that I went to our production office and suggested that we set up a seminar to explain this stuff, and how we should either present 4:3 stuff with "pillarbox" borders each side, or if it had to be cropped, to mainly use the top two thirds (or, actually the top three fifths, minus the top fifth, if that makes any sense) so as to get a fairly balanced framing.

For the record, I’m not actually too much of a fan of alternating aspect ratios during a presentation, so for those Imax films that open up their frames for certain sequences, i actually apply widescreen mattes via my projector, so that everything stays the same widescreen frame. Since the dead space is just that, nothing important is cropped out, since the framing would have taken this into account for the fixed theatrical showings.

In fact, I find that, despite a bigger canvas, opening up to 1.85 or 1.78 often feels like the screen has gotten "smaller", and then when we return to 2.35/39 it’s a much more noticeable switch that then takes away from the "wider" framing of those ratios. It’s also the same reason I choose to watch Snyder's Justice League blown up to 1.85 on my projector, since comparisons to Josstice League shows that it was typically framed for 1.85, with the theatrical cut clearly just cropping off the dead space top and bottom, as intended, and the Snyder cut just opening up those mattes and giving us all that dead space in a smaller screen size, ironically, which kind of takes away from the whole idea of Imax in the first place!

My fear with these Marvel films, is that we are still not getting a consistent image, since VFX are still only largely rendered to a final DI frame, in this case 2.39. So while the flat non-CG scenes may show more dead space top and bottom, the plentiful VFX shots will inevitably be cropped for, 2.39 to 16:9, chopping off a third or more image information left or right to make everything fit. Again, it’s not consistent, and *not* the widescreen theatre framing that the filmmakers intended…

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Re: New Disney Streaming Service: Disney+

Post by James » November 9th, 2021, 8:56 am

Great stuff!

What's weirder to me is we're not even talking about 1.43 IMAX -- this is some newer 1.9:1 version of IMAX. That is so close to 1:85 that I seriously don't get the point of even releasing a 2.39 version at all if you're also releasing the 1.9 version as well. Why not just shoot for 1.85 and not pay any licensing fee to IMAX?

Again, if we're talking a 2.39 that occasionally opens up to 1.43? OK, I see the appeal. But if you've specifically chosen 2.39 over 1.85, but want some occasional 1.9 or are also creating an alternate 1.9 version? I don't get the point.

BTW, here are some old comparisons. Gotta say some of this looks specifically framed for 1.9 while the scope version feels unceremoniously chopped.





EDIT: Here are some more details: https://deadline.com/2021/11/marvel-dis ... 1234869107

-- "Audio specialist DTS is on board to deliver its signature sound work to the Imax versions in streaming, though that element will be added at a later time."

-- "The default for the films on Disney+ will be Imax’s expanded aspect ratio, which is 1.90:1. Regular widescreen versions of the films also will continue to be available."

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Re: New Disney Streaming Service: Disney+

Post by gaastra » November 10th, 2021, 10:27 pm

Home alone 6 brings back the big brother from the original films Buzz McCallister. So we have a original character returning.

https://www.denofgeek.com/movies/home-s ... -original/

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Re: New Disney Streaming Service: Disney+

Post by ShyViolet » November 11th, 2021, 12:38 am

You can’t just have your characters announce how they feel! That makes me feel angry!

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Re: New Disney Streaming Service: Disney+

Post by Ben » November 11th, 2021, 5:03 am

James wrote:
November 9th, 2021, 8:56 am
BTW, here are some old comparisons.
Uh-uh…every shot in those is just opening up dead space. Kudos that even the VFX looks to have been completed at 1.90 (yes, this makes zero sense), but then I understand it’s only for certain scenes that played in Imax at the time, not the whole movies. But, as tight as the original framing may have been — an issue whenever dealing with the hyperwide ratios — but this *was* the original and intended framing for that ratio…and no-one complained or said it looks wrong or cramped. That was the intended theatrical frame the filmmaker intended you to see (or else they would have pulled back to give a looser framing in the first place while on set!).

Here, every shot is just doing exactly what I said above: giving you "more", but it’s just more dead space. Unnatural headroom, more sky, or more of people's legs (!?!??), which takes away from the specific frame as it was composed on set. And filmmakers HATE this stuff: look at the looser framing that changes an imposing Thanos close-up into a midshot — even that poster frame on the first example shows the epic widescreen grandeur on the left vs the, basically, TV version on the right, where we get more dead space top and bottom and Thanos looks smaller in the frame: he doesn’t dominate it, he’s just in it.

And that second example poster frame is no fair, since it’s the start of a tilt down. No framing would cut of a character head like that for a prolonged shot and that’s just fake, opportunistic marketing. At least the proper versions will continue to be offered, thankfully.

The bottom line is that you can either watch a widescreen, properly composed theatrical experience frame version, or one that makes the MCU feel even more like a TV show, simply by giving you more of the 16:9 framing that all digital cameras pick up nowadays, even when the intention is to frame for, and crop off the top and bottom to, 2.39.

This is ultimately a marketing gimmick that is fooling fans, and I actually wonder how many of the filmmakers actually had the heads up on this or approved it. And let’s not start to get into the slightly different, brighter color grading…!


gaastra wrote:
November 10th, 2021, 10:27 pm
Home alone 6 brings back the big brother from the original films…
Well, what else was he doing…? ;)


ShyViolet wrote:
November 11th, 2021, 12:38 am
:wink:
https://youtu.be/fonlEU7dFwA
It stinks! ;)

To be fair, that new HA does actually look gawd awful!

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Re: New Disney Streaming Service: Disney+

Post by Daniel » November 12th, 2021, 3:08 am

Dropping today:

🇺🇸:
Doogie Kamealoha, M.D. - Episode 10 (Finale) 🌎
Mickey Mouse Funhouse - 7 Episodes
Olaf Presents 🌎
Entrelazados 🌎
Ciao Alberto 🌎
Simpsons Short Plusaversary 🌎
The World According to Jeff Goldblum -Season 2 🌎
Under The Helmet: The Legacy of Boba Fett 🌎
Pixar Sneak Peek 🌎
Marvel Cinematic Universe Sneak Peek 🌎
Fancy Nancy - Season 3
The Making of Happier than Ever: A Love Letter to Los Angeles 🌎
Marvel Assembled: The Making of Shang-Chi and The Legend of The Ten Rings 🌎
Marvel Studios Legends: Hawkeye 🌎
Star Wars: Boba Fett Special 🌎
Spin
Shorts: (Frozen Fever, Feast, Get A Horse, Paperman, Tangled Ever After, The Little Matchgirl, The Ballad of Nessie, Tick Tock Tale)
Enchanted 🌎
Shang-Chi and The Legend of The Ten Rings 🌎
Home Sweet Home Alone 🌎
Jungle Cruise 🌎

🇬🇧:
Family Guy - Episode 2 (Season 20)
American Dad - Episode 19 (Season 17)
Reservation Dogs - Episode 6
Last Man Standing - Episode 16 (Season 9)
Y: The Last Man - Episode 10 (Finale)
The Great North - Episode 8
Mixedish - Episode 13
Bless The Harts - Episode 14 (Season 2)
The Premise - Episode 3
American Horror Story - Double Feature - Episode 4
Chicken Squad - Episode 1-13
Miraculous: Tales of Ladybug & Cat Noir - Episode 7 (Season 4)
Doc McStuffins Shorts - Season 1
Drugged - Season 2
South America's Weirdest Animals
Dead End Express
The Resident - Season 4
The Glades
Dopesick - Episode 1 & 2 ⭐

🇨🇦:
The Simpsons - Episode 3 (Season 33)
Family Guy - Episode 4 (Season 20)
Bob's Burgers - Episode 5 (Season 12)
The Great North - Episode 5 (Season 2)
Dopesick - Episode 1 & 2
Shorts: (Same as above)
Fancy Nancy - Season 3
Spin

🇦🇺:
Grey's Anatomy - Episode 4 (Season 18)
The Big Leap - Episode 2
The Ghost and Molly McGee - Premiere
Puppy Dog Pals - New Episodes
Pet Seekers
The Spectacular Now

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Re: New Disney Streaming Service: Disney+

Post by Ben » November 12th, 2021, 4:52 am

Well Plusaversary was a disappointment. A good start, and some fun crossover gags, but what a completely lame, non-ending that made the whole thing more "meh" than "meh" could be. And, yes, I know why, but would have been more fun to have original character voices rather than the jokey versions, since they’re *supposed* to the the "real" Disney versions, and other SFX vocalised characters (hello BB-8) used the original SFX, so that didn’t make sense in context. Ultimately maybe a good one-shot gag in an episode, but Family Guy ripped Disney up so much better back in the day.

Thanks for the new heads up Dan! I had a scroll through but once again I’m struggling to find anything that really grabs me. Time to finally watch Only Murders I guess!

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Re: New Disney Streaming Service: Disney+

Post by EricJ » November 12th, 2021, 1:20 pm

So, is Boba Fett Special some more self-promotion for the Mandalorian spinoff, or--as rumored--JUST the sorta-good animated segment from the Star Wars Holiday Special, since that's the only piece of it that Disney/Lucas owns?

(Every thing else this month is a self-promotional Making-Of, it's hard to tell.)

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Re: New Disney Streaming Service: Disney+

Post by gaastra » November 12th, 2021, 4:58 pm

Plusaversary had some surprise gags in it i wasn't expecting like
Homer drinking beer with goofy who is upset he is typecasted as a goof!
Elsa making ice for the beer! (really!)
Dr strange cheating at pool!

The last joke was kinda dark as well--
Ends with Jimminy crickett and ant-man both inches away from getting stepped on by cinderella in her glass slipper! Yikes!

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Re: New Disney Streaming Service: Disney+

Post by Ben » November 12th, 2021, 8:25 pm

How come Disney/Lucas *doesn't* own the whole Holiday Special? Conversely, how come it apparently only owns the Nelvana-produced Boba Fett cartoon segment? :?

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Re: New Disney Streaming Service: Disney+

Post by James » November 12th, 2021, 9:39 pm

I haven't been a fan of any of the Simpsons shorts since Disney took over. However, that's probably more to do with the Simpsons writers than Disney input.

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Re: New Disney Streaming Service: Disney+

Post by EricJ » November 12th, 2021, 10:10 pm

Ben wrote:
November 12th, 2021, 8:25 pm
How come Disney/Lucas *doesn't* own the whole Holiday Special? Conversely, how come it apparently only owns the Nelvana-produced Boba Fett cartoon segment? :?
Because George came up with the story (back when he thought Boba would have a more major role in the "future" Empire Strikes Back), and likely had some executive producer role in the segment.

The variety-show bits with Bea Arthur, however, belong to the network nut who produced the special in the first place, with only the licensing of characters from Lucas, and do not fall under D/L's jurisdiction.
So no, Lucas doesn't own the Muppet Show or Donny & Marie episodes, either. (And no, fans, that's why he "hasn't released it', and it's not hiding in his secret underground air-conditioned vault with the UOT.)

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Re: New Disney Streaming Service: Disney+

Post by James » November 12th, 2021, 10:59 pm

I understand why Lucas was ok not owing the entire special since he hated it. But I bet Disney could throw a fairly insignificant amount of money (for them) to get it all knowing it might be a D+ draw.

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Re: New Disney Streaming Service: Disney+

Post by Ben » November 13th, 2021, 5:20 am

They don’t need to. Gary Kurtz produced it for Lucasfilm, even if it was farmed out to a licensed producer. It was distributed by 20th Century, so Disney does own it through both Lucasfilm and Century.

They also obviously, also now own The Muppet Show too. Donnie & Marie was a Dick Clark production, still owned by them, although the network was ABC, so it’s possibly likely that they have a license if they wanted to chase that up, but it’s probably not worth it: SW content and characters have found their way on to many other shows and appearances.

I’d reckon the reason the Holiday Special hasn’t been released yet is because it does not exist in any quality version. And that, as per request, it doesn’t see the light of day while Lucas is still around and Disney needs him to endorse the odd new SW project here and there.

He really does hate that special, and with good reason.

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