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Post by Ben » February 17th, 2009, 5:56 pm

The site has been fairly sluggish lately, in both posting new stories and calling up the main front pages, but everything seems to be in order now. Animated-News.com is showing up for me as of posting this message.

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Post by James » February 26th, 2009, 8:55 pm

Something up with the search - I'm looking into it.

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Post by James » June 24th, 2009, 2:59 pm

Something bad is going on with our RSS feed so I'm taking the site down temporarily to try to fix it.

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Princess Topics

Post by Dusterian » July 23rd, 2009, 11:34 am

I am not arguing about making Princess Topics, but discussing some other things you said in here.

You said Walt Disney only made three in his lifetime.

Right, well, that actually shows he really liked the stories. He made three of them. I guess the rest of his films could be called "talking animal" films, but they often are about magic, too. That's another thing, I always considered Pinocchio and Peter Pan fairy tales, too. They have fairies in them, after all, and he has fairies and wizards in Fantasia. Even a magic feather in Dumbo.

But the fact he did princess stories three times kind of shows he liked them since he never did a particular type of story more than once like that, unless you consider "talking animal stories" a type.

And I can't believe you said princess stories just introduced young people to animation!

Walt's first was a fairy tale, but years later he did another one, and then years later he did another one. Sleeping Beauty is very advanced in animation, not what I'd call and introduction!

And then all the ones that came in the animation Renaissance, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin, going even further in advancement in animated movies!

These films, even the earliest like Snow White, are actually eternal classics that should be looked at repeatedly, not just seen as an introduction.

Otherwise, the very films you think are so far in advancement and movie-making today could be considered mere introductions in a few years...
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Post by Randall » July 23rd, 2009, 8:36 pm

Uh, how did this thread get revived after a month?

You are really mis-reading what Ben said (in January!!!).

Ben didn't meant there was anything wrong with a film being one that <i>could</i> introduce kids to animation, and he didn't say that it devalued the film at all. But animation is so much more than fairy tales, right? He's just saying that there are many, many more topics to explore and that the princess chatter was getting repetitive. Talking about the films is great; ranking princesses is just... well, childish, if that's all you are here for.

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Post by Whippet Angel » July 23rd, 2009, 9:37 pm

You are really mis-reading what Ben said (in January!!!).
January of 2008 I might add...

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Post by Ben » July 26th, 2009, 6:35 pm

You want to know why Walt made three fairytale princess movies?

#1) He saw the 1916 Snow White feature very young as a kid. It stayed with him. It was a fluke that this became the first animated feature as he had a number of projects on the boil. Snow White took the lead, came out first, and was a smash.

#2) World War II had shaken the foundations of the Disney Studio. As well as the Studio being used by the Army, foreign markets had been cut off and revenue was low. The Package Features kept things rolling but by 1949 Walt <I>desperately</I> needed a hit. A successful reissue of Snow White led him to believe that the answer lay in another fairytale. He put all his money on Cinderella and the Studio was rewarded with another hit.

#3) Sleeping Beauty came along as a way to do an old-school Disney fairytale in a new format. Disney wanted to really push the boat on on the apex of an animated feature format, and naturally the biggest hits had been the fairytales. This was chosen not because Walt loved these stories (though he obviously did like them), but because the numbers said that he could probably play with spending a lot of money and be fairly sure in recouping it back with a fairytale in the style of Snow White and Cinderella. Obviously, Sleeping Beauty was a bit too "highbrow" for some, and it wasn't a bit hit.

A number of other fairytale films that had been in production were then shelved for years, until the next generation redeveloped them. But the basic point was that Walt made these films as knew they had the best shot of making family audiences come back for more.

As Rand says, you pretty much missed the other points I was making. :(

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Princess Topics

Post by Dusterian » July 27th, 2009, 3:44 pm

No, I got what you were saying, I think, I just had to defend something I love in case you meant something different toward it...I know you don't like talking about this topic too much, but I only come in here every so often, so...

Your number 1 proves that Disney actually loved the story. He must've seen other movies as a kid, but it was that one that stayed with him for a reason. He liked it. He liked the story. He was very happy that would be his first feature. That was the one he acted out for everyone and got excited about making, first. The other projects planned came after he got excited about making Snow White and told them about it.

Indeed Cinderella was partly done because he knew Snow White had been a hit, but when he told Illene Woods Cinderella was his favorite heroine and he identified with her story, and he told a guest at his park how a scene from that film was his favorite in all of animation, and since I heard and read it was one of his favorites, it's clear his love for the story led him to make it.

Finally, aside from a quote about how inspirational the story of Sleeping Beauty was to him and his love of magical stories in a pamphlet for the film's walk-through, he planned on Sleeping Beauty being his perfect fairy tale masterpiece, but every single thing on DVD bonus features and that I have heard or read has stated that it was only after he realized the story would be told too much like his previous fairy tales that he told them to make the style so different, more highbrow arty. He said he wanted the film to be his masterpiece, so why wouldn't he first test the new format of animation with a tale audiences would love, and then make some animal story be his masterpiece, with a story he really liked? Why would people who worked with him say he planned Sleeping Beauty to be his masterpiece? Because he wanted a fairy tale to be his masterpiece. And Lady and the Tramp was the first to have the new widescreen format, wasn't it?

Just to say, almost all of his films were masterpieces anyway. This was just supposed to be "the big one", the masterpiece of masterpieces...and unfortunately, in many eyes, it didn't turn out that way. Even possibly in Walt Disney's eyes after he said "Is this what I paid 6 billion dollars for?!" or whatever it was he yelled. Some art lovers actually think the art in Sleeping Beauty doesn't work well, and I think certain parts of his other films are more beautiful than some parts of Sleeping Beauty, but that's another thing altogether.

As for those fairy tales that got shelved and made later in the renaissance, he actually said "If I ever go back, there's only two more I would like to do" or something like that. One of them was Beauty and the Beast, which is a fairy tale, but the guy Walt said that to couldn't remember what the other one was. But it shows even after all he did, when he wanted to go back to animation, and go further in animation, what interested him was still fairy tales.

I just have to defend these films I and Walt love. Don't forget he had fairies and magic in so many other films of his too. And as they said, Walt loved transformation.

Though talking animals of course are in everything. And he still cared for Mickey above, like, anything.

For the record, I didn't want to say that he loved fairy tales more than the other stories, I just wanted to say they were not as small an interest of his, or even no interest of his at all, as I thought you and some others have tried to say.
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Post by eddievalient » July 27th, 2009, 6:04 pm

Alright, both sides have had their say so let's move on before this becomes an argument, shall we?
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Post by Ben » July 28th, 2009, 5:29 pm

I beg to differ: what Walt's films tell us is that he enjoyed flights of fantasy, fairytale or not.

It's clear that, of the stories he had available to him, Cinderella was made because it most closely matched the Snow White formula.

Sleeping Beauty cost $6m not $6b! Imagine if Walt had spent that on one film!

The other one was The Little Mermaid.

And remember that Disney's whole empire was built on a talking, singing and dancing mouse, and a flying fairy. Walt sure loved that pixie-dust!

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Princess Topics

Post by Dusterian » July 29th, 2009, 4:30 pm

I see you have an excellent case to say that Walt loved fantasy period. I am just going to say as my last that there is another case in that talking animals, then magic and sprites, came up more often than anything else. Talking animals weren't in Snow White or Fantasia, but magic was, and was in Pinocchio (even with a fairy), Dumbo (with the feather), and in everything except Lady and the Tramp and arguably Alice in Wonderland, though Walt reportedly didn't care much for that one. Then Sleeping Beauty was the last one before his interest and involvement in animated features waned, and when he said he would go back...it was Beast and Mermaid. If he kept going, I guess he would've made more than just three in his lifetime.

But like I said I'm still thinking about you're case that he loved fantasy in general, it's just all those specific creatures and elements of fantasy coming up so often is hard to ignore.

Sleeping Beauty actually is much closer to Snow White I think. A princess by birth tricked by an old women into a sleeping spell awakened only by a prince. Then they added the whole hiding in a cottage in the woods with short old people element. Still, after what positive things he said about how much he liked and identified with Cinderella's story...it wasn't all because it was like his first hit.

Yes, I meant $6 million.

I wondered if the other one was Little Mermaid! Glad to know, though that was originally planned as a Silly Symphony, so I didn't know he considered making it a feature.

Yup, Walt loved Mickey above anything, even more than any women he met, he said. He also said we should remember "It all started with a mouse." And it's also evident Walt loved magic dust a lot, too. But he first loved it in Cinderella. According to The Animated Movie Guide he loved the fairy godmother's "luminous particles" so much he asked them to put more in the film, and it was called "Disney dust" later. Then Tinker Bell made everyone forget that! Grr! But that's why my name is Dusterian! : )
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Post by estefan » July 29th, 2009, 6:23 pm

Yeah, The Little Mermaid and Beauty and the Beast were two stories that Walt Disney considered adapting to animated features in his life-times, but those never came to be until the Alan Menken-Howard Ashman period.

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