I wholeheartedly agree. And I don't hold anything against Pixar.Disney will come around again, and I know you will see them do traditional animation again.
Will 2D animation die?
-
- AV Founder
- Posts: 25326
- Joined: October 22nd, 2004
- Location: London, UK
But Pixar ARE in a delicate situation. They NEED to stay the hit-kid in town or else...
1) Disney won't be as upset with them when they leave.
2) All the other studios won't clambor as much to grab a hold of them.
If they had a flop right now, it would be "oh, they're losing their touch", especially if it was hand drawn.
I think the thing is that no-one wants to admit that they wouldn't touch traditional again (especially when they want to convert those artists to digital)...
1) Disney won't be as upset with them when they leave.
2) All the other studios won't clambor as much to grab a hold of them.
If they had a flop right now, it would be "oh, they're losing their touch", especially if it was hand drawn.
I think the thing is that no-one wants to admit that they wouldn't touch traditional again (especially when they want to convert those artists to digital)...
I pretty much agree with everything Ben just said.
It's all politics. The Pixar folks and everybodies' current deity, Brad Bird, are pretty much just giving lip service to the folks desperate to see 2-D come back.
I just hope by the time that 2-D does make a feature film comeback that there are enough skilled artists still left that know how to animate by pencil let alone tell a story that doesn't rely too much on technological tricks... Tons of talent has left animation altogether and animation schools weren't in such great shape as it even before the axe came down at Disney.
This is even happening to an extent in Japan now. Animators there get paid so little that very few people last more than 5 years on the job before they give up and move on to better-paying work. There are so few skilled animators left in Japan that more and more camera tricks are being used to cover up the fact that most newbie animators there CAN'T animate or draw well... There's also the not-well-hidden fact that because of the rise in anime's popularity that so much product is being cranked out now that a lot of the newer product is ultra-bland, homogenized, and downright sh**tt*.
Seriously, if people think theatrical animation in the US is a joke, look at the theatrical crap that gets imported from Japan to the States. Most of it is so mechanical and heartless that it's a crying shame. Getting beyond the fact that Japan's film community just does NOT have the money to do more than limited animation -- full animation is extremely rare in anime --, they have even fewer good scriptwriters than the American animation industry. I swear that there are perhaps only 2 consistently good anime feature directors in Japan, one of them being Hayao Miyazaki. Everybody else (with the exception of Satoshi Kon) is so hit-and-miss that it's basically not worth it risking your money on most anime features.
(This is all my perception based on 12 years of watching a ton of anime...)
Japan's current situation sounds familiar, doesn't it?
A) Corporate types hijacking production and increasingly pushing overworked studios to pump out more product;
B) Outsourcing more to other Asian nations where labor is cheaper or can supplement domestic studios;
C) Animators NOT seeing their salaries rise in level with increased production and increasing demands on rare artistic skills;
D) Product suffering from massive overexposure and less lead time to develop stories and characters...
See, this ISN'T just an American trend in entertainment.
It's all politics. The Pixar folks and everybodies' current deity, Brad Bird, are pretty much just giving lip service to the folks desperate to see 2-D come back.
I just hope by the time that 2-D does make a feature film comeback that there are enough skilled artists still left that know how to animate by pencil let alone tell a story that doesn't rely too much on technological tricks... Tons of talent has left animation altogether and animation schools weren't in such great shape as it even before the axe came down at Disney.
This is even happening to an extent in Japan now. Animators there get paid so little that very few people last more than 5 years on the job before they give up and move on to better-paying work. There are so few skilled animators left in Japan that more and more camera tricks are being used to cover up the fact that most newbie animators there CAN'T animate or draw well... There's also the not-well-hidden fact that because of the rise in anime's popularity that so much product is being cranked out now that a lot of the newer product is ultra-bland, homogenized, and downright sh**tt*.
Seriously, if people think theatrical animation in the US is a joke, look at the theatrical crap that gets imported from Japan to the States. Most of it is so mechanical and heartless that it's a crying shame. Getting beyond the fact that Japan's film community just does NOT have the money to do more than limited animation -- full animation is extremely rare in anime --, they have even fewer good scriptwriters than the American animation industry. I swear that there are perhaps only 2 consistently good anime feature directors in Japan, one of them being Hayao Miyazaki. Everybody else (with the exception of Satoshi Kon) is so hit-and-miss that it's basically not worth it risking your money on most anime features.
(This is all my perception based on 12 years of watching a ton of anime...)
Japan's current situation sounds familiar, doesn't it?
A) Corporate types hijacking production and increasingly pushing overworked studios to pump out more product;
B) Outsourcing more to other Asian nations where labor is cheaper or can supplement domestic studios;
C) Animators NOT seeing their salaries rise in level with increased production and increasing demands on rare artistic skills;
D) Product suffering from massive overexposure and less lead time to develop stories and characters...
See, this ISN'T just an American trend in entertainment.
P.S.
I just remembered another thing... I'll add it in a new post.
Even in Japan, where most directors and audience are extremely wary of CGI replacing traditional animation completely, there's a perception among some producers and directors that they WILL have to go completely CGI to keep costs in-line.
(Uh-huh... And tell me Pixar movies AREN'T costing as much as Disney's last few hand-drawn films were?)
Also, because of the lack of traditional animation talent, there's a perception that the CGI industry will be able to or HAVE to "pick up the slack" and make up for the lack of traditionally-trained talent.
OH-KAY.
This REALLY, REALLY sounds familiar now...!
I just remembered another thing... I'll add it in a new post.
Even in Japan, where most directors and audience are extremely wary of CGI replacing traditional animation completely, there's a perception among some producers and directors that they WILL have to go completely CGI to keep costs in-line.
(Uh-huh... And tell me Pixar movies AREN'T costing as much as Disney's last few hand-drawn films were?)
Also, because of the lack of traditional animation talent, there's a perception that the CGI industry will be able to or HAVE to "pick up the slack" and make up for the lack of traditionally-trained talent.
OH-KAY.
This REALLY, REALLY sounds familiar now...!
-
- AV Forum Member
- Posts: 165
- Joined: January 24th, 2005
- Location: New Hampshire
I agree, the vast majority of anime that I see is dull, bland, boring, repetitive and mass produced crapola. But that doesn't change that fact that there are still good animators out there and there will continue to be.
The reason I hold out so much hope for traditional animation is that as long as there are true artists out there, it will not die. Someone will always be true to the art form. Look at black and white movies. I'm sure most of you say, "Yeah, that's dead and gone", but yet, they still get made, albeit one every 3 or 4 years or so, but they do get made. I remember seeing a movie titled The Man Who Wasn't There starring Billy Bob Thornton and James Gandolfini. It was an excellent film; very moody, great use of lighting, and an awesome story. It was in black and white, took place in the 1940's or 50's, can't remember which. But I recall that what struck me was the fact that they had the backbone to do the film in b/w and not color and it was the right choice. The film wouldn't have worked nearly as well in color. My point is, as long as there is someone willing to do it, even if it's not often, an art form survives. So talk of 2D animation's death is greatly exaggerated.
The reason I hold out so much hope for traditional animation is that as long as there are true artists out there, it will not die. Someone will always be true to the art form. Look at black and white movies. I'm sure most of you say, "Yeah, that's dead and gone", but yet, they still get made, albeit one every 3 or 4 years or so, but they do get made. I remember seeing a movie titled The Man Who Wasn't There starring Billy Bob Thornton and James Gandolfini. It was an excellent film; very moody, great use of lighting, and an awesome story. It was in black and white, took place in the 1940's or 50's, can't remember which. But I recall that what struck me was the fact that they had the backbone to do the film in b/w and not color and it was the right choice. The film wouldn't have worked nearly as well in color. My point is, as long as there is someone willing to do it, even if it's not often, an art form survives. So talk of 2D animation's death is greatly exaggerated.
Do. Or do not. There is no try.
---[i]Master Yoda[/i]
---[i]Master Yoda[/i]
-
- AV Forum Member
- Posts: 1
- Joined: December 28th, 2005
- Location: Istanbul and elsewhere
Good day to all.
I would like all parties interested in and concerned with the future of traditional hand-drawn animation to know thereis a Turkish website dedicated to that cause.
A young and talented animator I know started it last Fall, and now there are over a hundred registered members from the same country; mostly young professionals and students who don't prefer the CG road or, even if they do, don't want traditional animation to die out anyway. They are having their first nationwide get-together in the aptly named "Hakuna Matata Bar" in Istanbul.
I happen to know about it because I am Turkish myself, though I have lived and worked abroad for quite some time. (Also for Disney, among others!)
The website has a section in English, though as yet scarcely visited. That was my proposition, and I am trying to keep it alive. Seing this thread, I thought I'd drop a hint.
The site is www.cizgifilmci.com. The language selection is on the upper left.
Please feel free to drop in. Please remember that it is a special interest site for people who love and are concerned with traditional hand-drawn animation. Messages hinting that it is already dead, so we should all forget about it, will not be appreciated.
I would like all parties interested in and concerned with the future of traditional hand-drawn animation to know thereis a Turkish website dedicated to that cause.
A young and talented animator I know started it last Fall, and now there are over a hundred registered members from the same country; mostly young professionals and students who don't prefer the CG road or, even if they do, don't want traditional animation to die out anyway. They are having their first nationwide get-together in the aptly named "Hakuna Matata Bar" in Istanbul.
I happen to know about it because I am Turkish myself, though I have lived and worked abroad for quite some time. (Also for Disney, among others!)
The website has a section in English, though as yet scarcely visited. That was my proposition, and I am trying to keep it alive. Seing this thread, I thought I'd drop a hint.
The site is www.cizgifilmci.com. The language selection is on the upper left.
Please feel free to drop in. Please remember that it is a special interest site for people who love and are concerned with traditional hand-drawn animation. Messages hinting that it is already dead, so we should all forget about it, will not be appreciated.
-
- AV Founder
- Posts: 25326
- Joined: October 22nd, 2004
- Location: London, UK
Funnily enough, I believe The Man Who Wasn't There (and I agree with your assesment on this movie) was actually shot on color stock for "safety" and graded to high contrast black and white for its Digital Intermediate.
In fact, it has been released on DVD in color in some regions.
Not going against why the film worked, but just an interesting tidbit that proves even when Hollywood takes a risk, it takes it safely.
The last (big studio) film I believe was shot on b/w stock was Tim's Burton's Ed Wood for Touchstone Pictures.
In fact, it has been released on DVD in color in some regions.
Not going against why the film worked, but just an interesting tidbit that proves even when Hollywood takes a risk, it takes it safely.
The last (big studio) film I believe was shot on b/w stock was Tim's Burton's Ed Wood for Touchstone Pictures.
-
- AV Forum Member
- Posts: 243
- Joined: November 1st, 2004
- Location: New York
- Contact:
I would argue that b&W/color is a very good comparison to traditional/CG comparison. People say that traditional is a different artform & it should stay. As far as I'm concerned, B&W is also an artform. Why should it have mattered if movies were in color or b&w if it's the story & not the art style that matters?
-Michael
[url=http://www.mainstreetword.com]MSW[/url]
[url=http://www.mainstreetword.com]MSW[/url]
-
- AV Founder
- Posts: 8207
- Joined: October 16th, 2004
- Location: Orlando
- Contact:
-
- AV Forum Member
- Posts: 9047
- Joined: October 25th, 2004
- Location: Binghamton, NY
Can't wait for Enchanted. 
Also I don't see how 2d can be dead if Disney still makes a ton of $ re-releasing Cinderella and Lady and the Tramp. Hey, they might make even more if they released it in a theater, the way they did in the 80's!
Would be sooooooo cool.
And yeah....no malice against Pixar but I do hold them responsible (in an indirect way) for the submerging of 2-d. They never woke up one day and said: "Let's kill 2d." Neither did Disney. It's just that the 3d films made more $, end of story. It's not Pixar's fault that Toy Story and Bug's Life were massive hits. Nor is it Disney's "fault" that Brother Bear and Treasure Planet did less desirable business. Even with all the creative executives and vp's and all that, they ALL wanted the films to do well. Maybe they didn't always go about it the right way, but, no one ever decided outright to kill 2d. Not Eisner, Katzenberg or John Lassetter. It just happened.
Personally I think it will come back but it might take a little time.
Also I don't see how 2d can be dead if Disney still makes a ton of $ re-releasing Cinderella and Lady and the Tramp. Hey, they might make even more if they released it in a theater, the way they did in the 80's!
Would be sooooooo cool.
And yeah....no malice against Pixar but I do hold them responsible (in an indirect way) for the submerging of 2-d. They never woke up one day and said: "Let's kill 2d." Neither did Disney. It's just that the 3d films made more $, end of story. It's not Pixar's fault that Toy Story and Bug's Life were massive hits. Nor is it Disney's "fault" that Brother Bear and Treasure Planet did less desirable business. Even with all the creative executives and vp's and all that, they ALL wanted the films to do well. Maybe they didn't always go about it the right way, but, no one ever decided outright to kill 2d. Not Eisner, Katzenberg or John Lassetter. It just happened.
Personally I think it will come back but it might take a little time.
You can’t just have your characters announce how they feel! That makes me feel angry!