Award archives...

[Dacey]

I think that "Flushed Away" is also a lock if we're talking about five nominations. Unless the reviews are just plain awful, I think it has a good chance.

And ShyVi, why would you put "Happy Feet" under the "No Chance in Hades" category? It looks like great fun to me.

[ShyViolet]

To be fair, a DW released film won it just last year.

Um, well, not really. Yeah, I do consider it a "DreamWorks" film in the corporate sense but even with occasional input from DW people, it really was an Aardman film. (I'd feel differently if it was Flushed Away, more of a collaberation.) If it was a "real" DW film, we all know that it NEVER would have gotten all those Annies.

Plus, The Mad Penguins in a Christmas Caper didn't even get a NOMINATION for Best Short! With all due respect, in a world where Boundin' can get a nom, how the heck is that fair??

Cars got a lot of buzz this year, OTH not so much.

Cars got buzz from some people (and certainly a lot of hype, and that's not the same as buzz) but I think the real issue where Cars is involved is that it was a nice little movie that was dragged down by the same cutsie conventions as other Pixar films, in this case more so. (And Ben has said the same thing, especially that outside the U.S. Cars was NOT received with the same enthusiasm)

Sure, the die-hard devoted to Pixar film critics either loved it or gave it a pass, but there were quite a few critics that just didn't care for the film--quite different than the sweeping thumbs-up the Incredibles got two years ago from virtually everyone professing to review movies.

Of course it will get nominated (with everything we've heard on Cars this year it's impossible not to) but a near-lock to win? I beg to differ.

Pixar has won the feature award just 2 out of the 5 years it has been around.

Since 2001,when the award became official, they've released four movies and won twice--thats 50% of the time. And they've won for at least 2 animated shorts by my count, and almost EVERY animated short they've ever done has been nominated. They also got a "special award" for Toy Story in 1995.

DW has nominated films for the award about five times by my count--Shrek, Spirit, Shrek 2, Shark Tale, Madagascar--and they won only once. (That's not even counting the fact that Prince of Egypt was virtually ignored by the Academy in every respect except Best Song--ha!* No "special award" even though nothing like POE had ever been attempted before?) Plus because of what I can only call artistic near-hazing on the part of the film critics, Sinbad was never submitted for a nomination, even though in my opinon in more than deserved it. So basically since 2001 DW made six films potentially eligable for Best Animated Film....and won once. Pixar did four and won twice. I'm sorry but....that's a little uneven, to say the least.

I think Pixar deserved the Nemo and Incredibles awards, but as the moral of Cars suggests, it's time to give someone else a chance.

And ShyVi, why would you put "Happy Feet" under the "No Chance in Hades" category?

Hmmm.....well, probably because all we've seen up to this point is dancing Penguins. And nothing else. With the risk of being kicked off this board (j/k) I really don't know why I should care about dancing Penguins. If someone can explain to me why, I might feel differently.

*When you Believe is a great song, but by far not the best thing in POE!

[James]

Um, well, not really. Yeah, I do consider it a "DreamWorks" film in the corporate sense but even with occasional input from DW people, it really was an Aardman film. (I'd feel differently if it was Flushed Away, more of a collaberation.) If it was a "real" DW film, we all know that it NEVER would have gotten all those Annies.

I didn't say it was a DW film - I said it was a DW released film!

Plus, The Mad Penguins in a Christmas Caper DIDN'T EVEN GET A NOMINATION FOR BEST SHORT!!!! With all due respect, in a world where Boundin' can get a nom, how the heck is that fair??

The penguins short is in the same category as Mikes New Car and whatever that Incredibles short with Kari was called - cute little vignettes with characters we already know and love that don't really have any substance to them. Boundin' was in a totally different class.

...Of course it will get nominated (with everything we've heard on Cars this year it's impossible not to) but a near-lock to win? I beg to differ.

I did not say it was a lock to win! I EXPLICITLY stated that my list was in regards to nominations! Even you say "of course it will get nominated"! That's all I ever said!

Since 2001,when the award became official, they've released four movies and won twice--thats 50% of the time...DW has nominated films for the award about five times by my count--Shrek, Spirit, Shrek 2, Shark Tale, Madagascar--and they won only once... I'm sorry but....that's a little uneven, to say the least.

Or you could look at it and say DW has more total nominations than Pixar! But let's look seriously at this complaint.

- In 2001, a DW film beat Pixar
- In 2002, a foreign film beat DW - no Pixar nomination this year
- In 2003, a Pixar film won - no DW nomination this year
- In 2004, a Pixar film beat DW
- In 2005, a film released by DW won - no Pixar nomination this year

Where exactly is the inequity here? What year did Pixar screw over DW? Only one year out of five did Pixar beat DW, and even then not only did DW get more nominations, you yourself admitted the Pixar film that won deserved it! They have only competed head to head twice - and they split, with one award each!

And they've won for at least 2 animated shorts by my count, and almost EVERY animated short they've ever done has been nominated. They also got a "special award" for Toy Story in 1995.

If you don't think Pixar deserved that Special Award for Toy Story, then this conversation is a lost cause!

As for the shorts, let's examine that:

- Pixar has been making shorts for 20 years. DW has made one.
- Almost every one of Pixar's shorts was created as a way to prove some new concept or highlight some new technical achievement or was an original story. DW's was a vehicle to showcase some popular secondary characters from a previous movie.

I'm sorry if it upsets you that Pixar's long history in the field trumps DW's but I'm afraid for the time being at least that is just the way it is!

(That's not even counting the fact that Prince of Egypt was virtually ignored by the Academy in every respect except Best Song--ha!* No "special award" even though nothing like POE had ever been attempted before?)

In the 65 year history of the Best Song Oscar to that point in history, only six songs from animated films had ever won the award, including those from Pinocchio, Beauty and the Beast, and The Lion King. I'd say that was pretty good company and wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it.

Special Academy Awards are almost exclusively given for technical or personal achievements, not for story content.

Plus because of what I can only call artistic near-hazing on the part of the film critics, Sinbad was never submitted for a nomination, even though in my opinon in more than deserved it.

That was a choice made by DW - you can't blame anyone but them. Plus it was rather selfish as well, since every animated film that gets submitted helps up the film count to possibly raise the number of nominations for Best Animated Feature Oscar.

I can not believe the over reaction here - even from you! All I said was Cars was a lock for a nomination, and that is was all but certain Over the Hedge would get nominated - what was the big deal!!!

[ShyViolet]

That was a choice made by DW - you can't blame anyone but them.

Yes, but I do. :) It wouldn't have happened if critics hadn't gone after Sinbad the way they had.

I didn't say it was a DW film - I said it was a DW released film!

Right....so I don't count it as DW winning, but Aardman.

The penguins short is in the same category as Mikes New Car and whatever that Incredibles short with Kari was called - cute little vignettes with characters we already know and love that don't really have any substance to them. Boundin' was in a totally different class.

I didn't think Boundin' had much substance either. It had no emotional effect on me whatsoever.
And Jack-Jack attack wasn't just characters from the movie, it was pretty much just a scene from the movie expanded upon. (which was originally supposed to be in there anyway--basically an "extra" produced into a short.) Mad P's in CC was a sweet story completely separate from the film, lots of action and humor. Stuff actually happened, and we cared about the guys. Who cared about Kari from Incredibles, or even remembered her name? :roll:

But whatever....difference of opinion. :wink:

I did not say it was a lock to win! I EXPLICITLY stated that my list was in regards to nominations! Even you say "course it will get nominated"! That's all I ever said!

Yes, and I apologize for jumping the gun there. It just seemed as though by only putting Cars as a lock, you were saying that they were a front-runner and had much more chance to win than anyone else. I guess I misinterpreted what you meant.

Where exactly is the inequity here? What year did Pixar screw over DW?

They didn't, but it just seems to be a bias in favor if Pixar. Like I said, they made only four films since 2001 and won twice. DW had six potential winners and won once. It seems a bit uneven to me, but never mind. And yeah, I do agree that Pixar deserved to win, I just feel that since they've had a much higher ratio of wins to losses than Disney and DW, they're being favored. But like i said, it's just my feeling.

- Almost every one of Pixar's shorts was created as a way to prove some new concept or highlight some new technical achievement or was an original story. DW's was a vehicle to showcase some popular secondary characters

I don't agree, since the CC short was a great story all on its own (and the Penguins were barely developed except as a gag in Mad, but in CC they had more defined personalities. It wasn't just a "vehicle" IMO.

Also, don't forget First Flight--completely new characters.

If you don't think Pixar deserved that Special Award for Toy Story, then this conversation is a lost cause!

No, I do... :wink: I just meant that DW deserved recognition as well--because POE DID pioneer new techniques in animation (the camerawork, the art, the animation--you don't think that film blazed trails? Especially with the David Lean angles and amazing backgrounds and scenery? Doesn't that warrent just as much attention as a 3d film would?) And in my opinion it was a HUGE personal achievement by Katzenberg--who most people agree was the driving force on that film. If Lassetter gets acknowledged for TS than JK should for POE, that was his baby. That's just the way it is! :)

In the 65 year history of the Best Song Oscar to that point in history, only six songs from animated films had ever won the award, including those from Pinocchio, Beauty and the Beast, and The Lion King. I'd say that was pretty good company and wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it.

Yes but THOSE films got a whole lot more RECOGNITION on the part of critics, film Academies, film critic circles, cinema historians, etc...In POE's case there was much, much less of that, and it is still sadly lacking. That win for Best Song was a bone tossed, nothing more.

Plus it was rather selfish as well, since every animated film that gets submitted helps up the film count to possibly raise the number of nominations for Best Animated Feature Oscar.

Seflish?!?! C'mon James, put yourself in their place. Sinbad was almost completely and mercillessly panned, dismissed as a "flop", and seen by almost no one. Even if they did get nominated, the media would have had a field day attacking them as thinking they could "actually" win the Oscar, especially with Pixar's Nemo in the running. It would have been like throwing more egg on their face, which they surely didn't need.
They did it to save themselves the embarrassment of losing to Nemo, which of course they would have.

I can not believe the over reaction here - even form you! All I said was Cars was a lock for a nomination, and that is was all but certain Over the Hedge would get nominated - what was the big deal!!!

O.K...maybe I did overreact a bit. :wink: I just didn't think that Over the Hedge belonged in the same category as Ice Age 2 (a sequel to what was a mildly entertaining film) I just thought OTH was just as much a "lock" for a nomination as Cars. That's all.


:)

Hey--what's wrong with the emoticons here????

[James]

I just didn't think that Over the Hedge belonged in the same category as Ice Age 2 (a sequel to what was a mildly entertaining film) I just thought OTH was just as much a "lock" for a nomination as Cars. That's all.

Let me also reiterate that the list I made was NOT my personal list of favorite movies from this year. It was my objective (since I didn't list them how I would want to see it) and somewhat educated (not to boast, but I'm probably the only person here who has seen 13 of the 14 animated films released this year so far) prediction on what the Academy might do.

Example: last year I would've put Hoodwinked in the "No Chance in Hades" section when it came to Oscar noms, even though it was one of my favorite movies of the year!

[Meg]

Also, don't forget First Flight--completely new characters.

Wah, I always forget about that short! I was so bummed they didn't show it with OtH. It looked so cute.

[Ben]

Disney has 'em all beat.

1938 - Walt accepts a special award - his own, specially designed Oscar - for the creation of Snow White

1991 - Walt Disney Feature Animation's Beauty And The Beast competes - though does not win - in the "grown up" Best Picture category. No sub-animated feature token nod for THEM!

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Boundin' is a groundbreaking film, whether it hit anyone emotionally or not (I did happen to adore it). As First Flight looks to be (not that anyone could tell with the lousy release it's gotten so far). The Penguins short was, JUST like direct-to-dvd follow ups for Monsters Inc, Ice Age, Shrek and The Incredibles, made as an extra feature for a DVD that happened to turn out well that it got a (limited) theatrical outing. Again, that it did not get nominated was down to DWs not pushing it forward. I also don't think Mike's New Car should ever have been nominated, and was glad it didn't win. DVD extras are DVD extras.

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Prince Of Egypt...much as I love that film, was "Disney Does Moses", with half of the B-team at WDFA joining JK at his new studio. That film was as much Simon Wells, Brenda Chapman and co's as much as JK's, and the David Lean approach was actually Spielberg's contribution. If you want to look at it techincally, POE built on techniques the entire crew had been working on at Disney, most notably in The Lion King, Hunchback and Tarzan. There is nothing "new" in POE that hadn't been worked out for those features - they just managed to take it to the next level.

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Sinbad...from what I understand, was known by all at DWs - including JK - to be a turkey from when they had story problems in production. It was completed since they had so many boys-action-toy tie-ins in place and could not cancel it. Sinbad was released without any big publicity, the trailer didn't hit screens until a month or two before release. They knew it was going to bomb and just got out while they could. The film was finished to the level that DWs felt happy with, though there was never any thought given to the Oscars since it was so very clear that it wasn't going to win, so why throw that money at it to re-promote it? Sinbad was fun enough, but not a serious contended - perhaps DWs worst "tradigital" movie?

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Looks like James and Vi both got out of the wrong side of bed, and what's happened to your avatar, Vi? Looks like Belle is more than a little hazy!

[ShyViolet]

That film was as much Simon Wells, Brenda Chapman and co's as much as JK's, and the David Lean approach was actually Spielberg's contribution.

Well....much as I respect Wells, Chapman and Hickner...from what I know about K from all the info digging I've done (MANY articles, books, repeated viewings, etc...) it just seems to me like that film was very, very personal to him and although I'm sure the three directors made great contributions, IMHO it would be appropriate to call it his film. A lot of it--issues of fatherhood, sons, failure, rivalries,and loss is very much inspired by things in his life regardless of what he "says" in interviews.

I'll defer to you Ben since I know you're much more knowledgable of these things than any of us are, but like I said, these are my impressions.

Code: Select all

There is nothing "new" in POE that hadn't been worked out for those features - they just managed to take it to the next level. 

Yeah, but isn't taking it to that level in the first place noteworthy in itself?

and what's happened to your avatar, Vi? Looks like Belle is more than a little hazy!

I just switched it to a different one is all.

[ShyViolet]

Well anyway...about the Oscars....


I still think OTH has a good chance of winning, although Cars has the Pixar name in its favor, and of course a bigger box office gross.


If there's five, I think it'll be:


Cars
Over the Hedge
Monster House
Flushed Away
Everyone's Hero

Sorry, but I REALLY don't think Ice Age 2 has much of a shot. It's a sequel--and, IMO,unless something is a Pixar or DW sequel, it's going to get overlooked.

[Ben]

Well....much as I respect Wells, Chapman and Hickner...it just seems to me like that film was very, very personal to him.

...isn't taking it to that level in the first place noteworthy in itself?

Then why isn't he also credited as a director? Vi, JK is a good executive, even a creative one. He's even influenced a few good movies. But he's not a filmmaker.


And no, taking it to the next level is not noteworthy in itself. Inventing it in the first place is noteworthy. There's ALWAYS someone to take things to the next level.

[ShyViolet]

Then why isn't he also credited as a director?

Hmmm.....that's true. I always just figured he was kinda like Lucas and Star Wars, not actually directing but still the one "behind" it.


Oh well....

[Dacey]

I'm gonna try to get this thread back on-topic, since it has become another of our infamous "DreamWorks Vs. Pixar" threads. But first, I'll comment on a few things that were said.

I do consider "Wallace and Gromit" a DW movie, just as I consider "Chicken Run" a DW movie and will consider "Flushed Away" one. After all, it was "W&G" which caused DWA Shares to plunge (I'm not quite sure why, but that's what the reports were).

I do think it was wrong for DreamWorks not to submit "Sinbad". And I don't blame the critics so much as I blame the whole "2D animation is dying out" thing. Though the reasons Ben brought up might be true. In any case, it's the thing I hate Katzenberg most for.

And how was "Prince of Egypt" snubbed by the Academy? I'm just a little confused there.

Anyway, back to the original topic, no, I don't see "Everyone's Hero" being nominated, even though I've said that before. "Open Season" has some talented people behind (I keep hearing that "The ChubbChubbs" was very entertaining), and "Happy Feet" could also have a chance.

[ShyViolet]

and "Happy Feet" could also have a chance.

I guess, but what exactly IS it about? Does anyone know?

Is it about a Penguin who wants a shot at the bigtime but is ridiculed for wanting to dance or something?

[Ben]

It's a big budget, CGI remake of The Pebble And The Penguin.

[Ben]

Of course, I am joking.