Tangled (formerly Rapunzel)

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Dusterian
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Disney's Tangled

Post by Dusterian »

EricJ wrote:Walt didn't even want the princesses to look alike--
He thought Cinderella couldn't follow Snow White's "classic" princess look, so she was stylized to more of a contemporary 50's-debutante look of the day...
Cinderella has always been the most classic, or classy looking princess to me. Her hair is up and fancy, her dress is fancy, everything about her is fancier and more classy looking than Snow White.

Cinderella's hair was classic in the 1800's:
As seen here

And it was classic in the time Perrault wrote the original tale the Disney film is based on:
As seen here.

So, not just the 1950's! And you can see her ballgown is like those, too. Where did you actually hear or read that Walt specifically said he wanted Cinderella to look more 1950's? By the way, you are forgetting that Snow White looked very 1930's. Her hair, her flat chest. Why, she looks like Betty Boop! She is as of her modern era as Cinderella! But don't worry, she still looks classic and classy. All the princesses look like princesses that could have lived back then.

SZWG, okay, you want to see more diversity. But even though Walt wanted to move forward, that was mostly with technology and techniques. He returned to the fairy tale genre, or the classic literature genre, time and time again, and didn't do any wacky, twisted versions of them (like Princess and the Frog, which did not do nearly as well as those past Disney classics). Disney needs to be Disney, Disney needs to be classic.
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EricJ
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Re: Tangled (Formerly Rapunzel)

Post by EricJ »

SZWG wrote:The Princess and the Frog was a great reimagining of the classic tale with a strong female lead. I want to see new, diverse stuff. Diversity doesn't always mean you are being PC.
It wasn't "the classic tale", it was based on E.D. Baker's fairytale-parody "The Frog Princess"
(And the fact that the finished product didn't resemble 90% of the book might've been one legal reason the title was changed in mid-production.)

In that story, real princess "Emeralda"--living in Standard Generic Fairytale Kingdom--kisses a frog prince, the effect backfires, and the two are hopping past other natural and fairytale perils to find the good Mamma, er, witch who can change them back...Umm, that's it.
No New Orleans, no gumbo, no voodoo, no proactively empowered role-model commoner heroines--And no "deliberate" diversity past the idea of animators simply trying to fill in the void of a generic story with a setting that provides a bit of visual/thematic stimulation to make it look different from their other films.

...Rapunzel, OTOH, is packed with plot, and they can let the setting sink into the background while the characters take the story.
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Re: Disney's Tangled

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Dusterian wrote:
SZWG, okay, you want to see more diversity. But even though Walt wanted to move forward, that was mostly with technology and techniques. He returned to the fairy tale genre, or the classic literature genre, time and time again, and didn't do any wacky, twisted versions of them (like Princess and the Frog, which did not do nearly as well as those past Disney classics). Disney needs to be Disney, Disney needs to be classic.
I disagree. Walt Disney wanted to move forward with story as well. He altered the classic stories to make them suit his needs. Snow White was altered from the original: http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/seve ... index.html At the end, the Prince's kiss doesn't awaken her. The Prince has his servants carry her coffin away, they stumble over a tree stump, and dislodge the apple. Disney altered the ending to make it appeal to a wider audience. He also altered Snow White by having her be friends with all the animals in the forest. This set a precedence that all Disney animated movies would have animal sidekicks. In the originals, there weren't any animal sidekicks. They were added to make the movies more interesting, for comic relief, and a someone for the main character to interact with.

When it comes to the fairytale genre, Disney only made four traditional fairytales which he adapted to please his audience: Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, and Pinnochio (which was a financial failure). While the princess movies were a success, Disney didn't make them one after another.

Snow White 1937
Cinderella 1950
Sleeping Beauty 1959

Almost a decade in between all of them. When Disney needed to generate income, he made a fairytale film. In between these classic princess tales, he experimented with other stories. Bambi (adapted from Felix Salten's novel--the plot varies greatly from the film), Saludos Amigos, Make Mine Music, Fun and Fancy Free, Melody Time, and a short feature film entitled Dumbo. Dumbo was a big risk for Disney. He had bombed at the box office with Fantasia and Pinnochio. He made Dumbo, because he liked the story written by some of his employees and given to him in short segments with his newspaper every morning. Dumbo, with its original story not based off a classic fairytale, earned Disney more money than his other pre-WWII (before the US entered the conflict) movies (not including Snow White).

Look at the other movies in Disney's time, Peter Pan, Alice in Wonderland, Bambi, The Adventures of Icabod and Mr. Toad, 101 Dalmations, The Sword and the Stone, The Jungle Book. These aren't classic fairytales. With the exception of The Sword and the Stone and 101 Dalmations (in their own right these titles are 20th century classic literature), these movies are all classic literature. They are all adaptations of novels that Disney rewrote and altered in some form to appeal to a greater audience. The original Jungle Book is whole lot darker than the watered down version Disney put his name on. Disney even got into some arguments with a few members on his production team who wanted the story to remain dark. But these are still considered classic Disney movies without a single fairytale princess to their name (Alice doesn't count).

Let's look to the future too. The Little Mermaid? In the original she dies and the prince leaves her for another woman: http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/litt ... index.html
I've heard many an Anderson purist call Disney's version twisted. But by changing it to be family friendlier with a happy ending and animal sidekicks, it's regarded as a classic Disney movie.

And what about all of Pixar's movies? By being having diverse characters and new story plots instead of adaptations they haven't failed in ten years! But they're a different studio and despite being under the Disney label they're not traditional Disney, even though they've gone back to Walt Disney's roots even more than the current Disney animated studios.

My point being, classic Disney isn't just traditional fairytales. Walt Disney wanted to do stories that entertained an audience and pushed the format envelope. The time period he lived in was not as open minded about diverse and different characters as we are today (though there are still many barriers). I do think if Disney was living today, he would have characters of different ethnicities in his movies to appeal to those audiences. His main goal in life was innovation in story and technique. Classic Disney is finding/writing great stories even if you have to change them a bit and presenting them in a medium that compliments the story.
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Post by Dusterian »

EricJ, I asked you a question.

SZWG, yes, but I did not mean that fairy tales were all that was classic about Disney. I meant that Disney did "classic" stories and did them in classic ways.

But The Princess and the Frog changed the story way more than any other previous fairy tale, so much so, that the actual fairy tale of The Frog Prince is shown as a book in the film, seperate from what the actual movie is about. It was not classic, it was "with a twist", and modern.
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Post by Bill1978 »

For those wanting a little more info on Mother Gothel I present:

http://adisney.go.com/disneypictures/ta ... er-gothel/

I haven't been able to view yet, due to the work computer being slow.

I'm a tad slow but I just noticed that the villain's name spells Got Hel
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Re: Tangled (Formerly Rapunzel)

Post by Tristy »

Saw that vid! She really looks like a nasty piece of work.
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Post by EricJ »

Bill1978 wrote:For those wanting a little more info on Mother Gothel I present:
http://adisney.go.com/disneypictures/ta ... er-gothel/
I haven't been able to view yet, due to the work computer being slow.
Looks like a cross between a badass Esmeralda, and Ursula: the Early Attractive Years...

(And although they're going for the contemporary-teen "Mo-om!" allegory, makes an interesting change from the "old witch" of the traditional story, seeing as Snow White's witch pretty much has that jersey retired.)
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Dusterian
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Disney's Tangled

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Bill1978 wrote:I just noticed that the villain's name spells Got Hel
Well, actually, Rapunzel is a fairy tale from German. Mother Gothel is actually a German term that means "godmother". Yes, the original witch/enchantress in the story was called Rapunzel's godmother, I think only after she took her.

Disney may be kind of silly to have their villainess, who is different from the original one, be named Mother Gothel, but they tend to do that. Oh well, that's her name.
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Re: Tangled (Formerly Rapunzel)

Post by Bill1978 »

Yeah I know that's her traditional name. In my original post I mentioned I knew that and thought it was kinda cool, in the way Cruella's last name spells devil. I know Disney didn't deliberatley name her Gothel for that reason.

But my computer went spazzy and I had to do everything over again and I was too lazy to put everything back in. But I should have as I knew you were going to pull me up on the traditional name Dusterian.
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Post by Tristy »

Actually, there are some versions where she is known as Mother Gothel. The one I'm most familiar with (which has beautiful illustrations by one of my idols, Trina Schart Hyman) gives her the name Mother Gothel.

Oh and to switch the topic, for those of you who wanted to hear a full song, here it is; Mandy Moore and Zach Levi singing "I See the Light"

http://www.waltdisneystudiosawards.com/ ... /music.php
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Post by Bill1978 »

Thank you for sharing that link Tristy. It's absolutely fantastic to get to hear some new Menken stuff.

My first impression is that it is absolutely beautiful and combined with the visuals I think this is going to be a very memorable moment for the film. I initially felt a little bit let down after listening cause it didn't sound musical but then I realise that that was probably a result of being so familiar with Mandy Moore's singing voice that it sounded like a new song from her.

On second listen, lyrically it is very much in the style of a musical. Zach Levi impressed me with his vocals. And it's wonderful to finally get a new Disney love duet happening. Cannot wait for the soundtrack release now.

If the visuals build upon an already solid beautiful song, I do think we have our fisrt lock for a song nomination at the Academy Awards next year
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Re: Tangled (Formerly Rapunzel)

Post by Darkblade »

So Disney is copying Dreamworks, so its possible that Dreamworks will copy disney. Wait. They already did that with pixar thank you very much. :mrgreen:
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Re: Tangled (Formerly Rapunzel)

Post by Dusterian »

What? What do you mean by any of this?
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Re: Tangled (Formerly Rapunzel)

Post by ELIOLI »

Did...I miss something here? O_O
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Post by Bill1978 »

I have no idea BUT I'll take a stab at it.

Some people think Tangled looks like a repeat of Shrek (Disney copying Dreamworks). Because only the Shrek movies are allowed to produce funniness in fairytale land.

So then the poster hypothesizes that perhaps Dreamworks will copy Disney (as revnege??) but comes to the conclusion that Dreamworks has already done that by producing CG movies like Pixar which is owned by Disney rather than the hand drawn features Dreamworks originally produced.

Thus suggesting people should stop belittling Disney for copying Dreamworks (with Tangled) as Dreamworks has been copying Disney for years.

If it's anything else I am completely confused with the out of left field nature of the post as well.
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